Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

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Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This question, along with similar or associated ones, has been asked, from the Gospels onwards, to this day.

Various answers have been given.

Here is a key exchange Jesus had with Jewish leaders and teachers, from John 10:
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ (Psalm 82:6)?
35 If He called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
This is an interesting back and forth, I think.

1). What do you think about the above passage, and its speakers?

2). Is Jesus Christ the Son of God but not God the Son?

3). Or is he neither?

4). Or is he both?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed May 19, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #21

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:52 am
Falling Light 101 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:00 am Yahashua came to earth and lowered himself - emptied himself - he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY - - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF TO BE CHANGED INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD - If this is who and what he already was ?
Right, Checkpoint. He only "altered Himself" in that He took on the same frailty that we as mere men have. He took the form of -- took on the same nature as -- man, but did not cease to be in the form of -- of the same nature (and have the same glory) as -- God the Father. He laid His deity aside for a time for man's sake, to reconcile us to the Father. This is Philippians 2:5-11.

By the same sort of token, I can empty myself of my humanity and (figuratively, of course) ~ set it aside and become an "animal" of sorts, or a "monster," committing all sorts of atrocities. But even so, I am still human, a human being. In the same way, Jesus emptied Himself of His status as God the Son and His glory that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time -- for our sake -- to accomplish our redemption, to make it possible. But even so, He was still God the Son. And never ceased to be God the Son, and even now is God the Son, as He's unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever (as pointed out previously).

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #22

Post by Checkpoint »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:09 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:52 am
Falling Light 101 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:00 am


Yahashua came to earth and lowered himself - emptied himself - he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY - - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF TO BE CHANGED INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD - If this is who and what he already was ?
Right, Checkpoint. He only "altered Himself" in that He took on the same frailty that we as mere men have. He took the form of -- took on the same nature as -- man, but did not cease to be in the form of -- of the same nature (and have the same glory) as -- God the Father. He laid His deity aside for a time for man's sake, to reconcile us to the Father. This is Philippians 2:5-11.

By the same sort of token, I can empty myself of my humanity and (figuratively, of course) ~ set it aside and become an "animal" of sorts, or a "monster," committing all sorts of atrocities. But even so, I am still human, a human being. In the same way, Jesus emptied Himself of His status as God the Son and His glory that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time -- for our sake -- to accomplish our redemption, to make it possible. But even so, He was still God the Son. And never ceased to be God the Son, and even now is God the Son, as He's unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever (as pointed out previously).

Grace and peace to you.
Hello, Pinseeker; greetings.

Your answer was addressed to me, but I did not write the post you have answered here: Falling Light 101 did.

The Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you.

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Re: Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #23

Post by Eloi »

The question of how Jesus should be considered is not a modern issue. People wondered about that when he was living among humans. He himself had a conversation on that topic with his followers, and confirmed what the answer to the question is:

Matt. 16:13 When he had come into the region of Caes·a·reʹa Phi·lipʹpi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did. 18 Also, I say to you: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you may bind on earth will already be bound in the heavens, and whatever you may loosen on earth will already be loosened in the heavens.” 20 Then he sternly instructed the disciples not to tell anybody that he was the Christ.

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Re: Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #24

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:02 am Your answer was addressed to me, but I did not write the post you have answered here: Falling Light 101 did.
Understood. My apologies. My point still stands, though.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:02 am The Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you.
To you also! Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #25

Post by Falling Light 101 »

.
Thank you Checkpoint for answering my question.

I appreciate you taking the time.

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Re: Is Jesus God the Son, or is he the Son of God?

Post #26

Post by Falling Light 101 »

~

I understand exactly what you are saying “ Checkpoint “

Please consider that this is a major contradiction for the Trinitarian - and for the their translation.

Please correct me if I am misquoting you ~ what you are saying is that Jesus emptied out and removed his glory He possessed with the Father (His deity)

“ but only for a time “ ?

Trinity faith leads trinitarians to say and believe ~ that “ Jesus emptied Himself of His His glory that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time “

But yet that Jesus also “ did not cease to be in the form of -- of the same nature (and have the same glory) as -- God the Father “

Not to be discourteous or confusing but this is a total and complete Trinitarian contradiction -

saying that ~ Jesus emptied and voided out his status, RANK, position and his standing and empted himself and no longer had His glory that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time “

and yet Trinitarians claim that he also ~ did NOT cease on earth existing in the form of -- of the same nature ( and having the SAME GLORY ) as -- God the Father “ ? ? ?

This contradiction is the claim Jesus here on earth had been removed, emptied and voided out of his status, RANK, position that he previously had and empting himself, he longer had His glory that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time “
but yet he did still was not NOT ceasing on earth, being and existing in the form of -- of the same nature ( and having the SAME GLORY ) as -- God the Father

Are you saying that - He existed on earth having the SAME GLORY ) that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time - but this SAME GLORY ) that He possessed with the Father as -- God the Father was also removed ?

Are you saying on earth his GLORY was the same as the previous glory he possessed with the father but at the same time he also emptied Himself of His glory that He possessed with the Father (His deity) for a time ?

WHICH of these two claims do Trinitarians believe - ? ? ?

because this is a contradiction and dishonest to say that existing on earth Jesus did NOT have His SAME GLORY that He possessed with the Father

but yet at the same time, existing on earth Jesus , did HAVE His SAME GLORY ) that He possessed with the Father.

What do Trinitarians believe? The manuscripts deny the Trinitarian faith system in every way possible - and Triunatarism does nothing but continually contradict itself in a circular orbit of untruth

in fact the manuscripts say that Yahashua did NOT have the same glory that He PREVIOUSLY had possessed with the Father.

And that He lived his entire existence on earth empty and void of the father’s glory, this glory was removed from him and canceled out and taken away - and just before his death, just before he was to return back to the father whom he EXIT FROM / HAD COME / exiting OUT FROM -

he declared, the very moment before he was to die and return back to heaven and LEAVE THE EARTH . .

Joh 17:5 O Father, NOW / AT THIS TIME glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee, before………

Mat 16:27 The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels
Mar8:38 when the son of man comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Joh 17:1 Jesus, lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, THE HOUR IS COME; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
In Joh 17 the narrative is describing that Jesus is just about to be delivered to be crucified - he is saying that he does not NOW POSSESS “ the SAME GLORY “ that he had with God and that after his death THEN he will receive the same GLORY that he had before he was conceived on earth.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man SHALL COME IN THE GLORY of his Father
25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38 when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, AND TO ENTER INTO HIS GLORY?

How can Trinitarians make the claim that Jesus did not cease to be in the form of -- of the same nature (and have the same glory) as -- God the Father ?

The manuscripts say that the Glory that Yahashua had on earth was the glory that he gave to the believer - Joh 17:22 And the glory which the father had given to Yahashua was the glory he had given them;
Did Yahashua give believers the same GLORY that he possessed when he was IN the fathers bosom in heaven ?
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus did cease and was taken out of and removed from the NATURE AND the glory of the father that he previously exited as.

HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHERS CONFIDENCE - not the image of the father’s person.

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