Original Sin

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Miles
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Original Sin

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Post by Miles »

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"Original sin is the Christian doctrine that humans inherit a tainted nature and a proclivity to sin through the fact of birth. Theologians have characterized this condition in many ways, seeing it as ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.

The doctrine of original sin began to emerge in the 3rd century but only became fully formed with the writings of Augustine of Hippo (354–430), who was the first author to use the phrase "original sin" (Latin: peccatum originale). Augustine's conception of original sin was based on a mistranslated passage in Paul the Apostle's Epistle to the Romans, and scholars have debated whether the passage supports Augustine's view.

Augustine's formulation of original sin became popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated original sin with concupiscence (or "hurtful desire"), affirming that it persisted even after baptism and completely destroyed freedom to do good and proposed that original sin involved a loss of free will except to sin.


Roman Catholicism
Catholic veiw: "Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.
By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin". As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence")


Lutheranism
The Lutheran Churches teach that original sin "is a root and fountain-head of all actual sins.
Martin Luther (1483–1546) asserted that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception.


Jehovah's Witnesses
The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race . This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin , and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12).
This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘ original sin ’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘ original sin ’ means.
source


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
(Mormon)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Methodism

Methodist theology teaches that a believer is made free from original sin when he/she is entirely sanctified.
(["entirely sanctified" or] Christian perfection is the name given to various teachings within Christianity that describe the process of achieving spiritual maturity or perfection. The ultimate goal of this process is union with God characterized by pure love of God and other people as well as personal holiness or sanctification.
source

Eastern Christianity
The Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic Churches' version of original sin is the view that sin originates with the Devil, "for the devil sins from the beginning (1 John iii. 8)".[74] The Eastern Church never subscribed to Augustine of Hippo's notions of original sin and hereditary guilt. The Church does not interpret "original sin" as having anything to do with transmitted guilt but with transmitted mortality. Because Adam sinned, all humanity shares not in his guilt but in the same punishment .
source unless otherwise indicated


So, what do think of original sin; a third century Christian doctrine created to invest salvation with greater significance, a concept of questionable value, or concocted hogwash?


.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Original Sin

Post #101

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:56 pm Is the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses a justifiable curtailing of their rights that protects society from harm?
No I don't believe it is, the official beliefs and practices of the religion Jehovah's Witnesses do not prescribe anything that is harmful to society.
Difflugia wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:56 pm
If not, what between "blasphemy," "collecting sticks on the wrong day," and "having sex with certain people" from being one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Those things are I believe potentially harmful.







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Re: Original Sin

Post #102

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:30 am Those things are I believe potentially harmful.
So do totalitarians.

Thus far, the only criterion you've offered to distinguish freedom from totalitarianism is that you know it when you see it.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #103

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:30 am Those things are I believe potentially harmful.
So do totalitarians.
Thus far you have yet to offer a criterion to identify a totalitarians .
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #104

Post by help3434 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:30 am
Difflugia wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:56 pm Is the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses a justifiable curtailing of their rights that protects society from harm?
No I don't believe it is, the official beliefs and practices of the religion Jehovah's Witnesses do not prescribe anything that is harmful to society.

Societies may disagree. What if they want to go to war and there are bunch that refuse the draft? What if there is a medical emergency and a blood supply shortage? What if there a societal problems caused by parents disowning their children? I wouldn't outlaw your religion, but society that is already authoritarian enough to put people for death for speaking against their chosen God, or work on certain days, or have sex with someone the same gender might.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #105

Post by JehovahsWitness »

help3434 wrote:
Societies may disagree. What if they want to go to war and there are bunch that refuse the draft? What if there is a medical emergency and a blood supply shortage? What if there a societal problems caused by parents disowning their children?

We cannot nor do we do seek to control what other people view as harmful. I do not consider the official Jehovahs witness position on any of those things harmful. If there are governments that do then they will have to outlaw our religion.

Few governments outside of Russia, China and North Korea presently have chosen to do so.

help3434 wrote:

I wouldn't outlaw your religion, but society that is already authoritarian enough to put people for death for speaking against their chosen God, or work on certain days, or have sex with someone the same gender might.
Anything is possible.




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #106

Post by 2timothy316 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:49 am
Difflugia wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:30 am Those things are I believe potentially harmful.
So do totalitarians.
Thus far you have yet to offer a criterion to identify a totalitarians .
Also yet to offer what is included with freedom. Also, what isn't included with freedom.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #107

Post by help3434 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:08 pm
Can you not see how telling someone not to talk to anyone that might disagree with you might be considered limiting their legitimate right to information?

You mean like when God in the Bible said this:

Deuteronomy 13
1. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul

or

Jeremiah 23:16
Thus says the Lord of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.

or
Jeremiah 27:16
Then I spoke to the priests and to all this people, saying, “Thus says the Lord: Do not listen to the words of your prophets who prophesy to you, saying, ‘Behold, the vessels of the Lord’s house will now shortly be brought again from Babylon’; for they are prophesying a lie to you. ?

Seems like later on the Bible God did not care enough about free speech to stop Himself from warning people about deceivers.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #108

Post by William »

help3434 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:53 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:08 pm
Can you not see how telling someone not to talk to anyone that might disagree with you might be considered limiting their legitimate right to information?

You mean like when God in the Bible said this:

Deuteronomy 13
1. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul

or

Jeremiah 23:16
Thus says the Lord of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.

or
Jeremiah 27:16
Then I spoke to the priests and to all this people, saying, “Thus says the Lord: Do not listen to the words of your prophets who prophesy to you, saying, ‘Behold, the vessels of the Lord’s house will now shortly be brought again from Babylon’; for they are prophesying a lie to you. ?

Seems like later on the Bible God did not care enough about free speech to stop Himself from warning people about deceivers.
I would say that the reason this is the case, is because it is a way of keeping the culture pure - not so much a 'God' doing the commanding - just humans with agendas.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #109

Post by JehovahsWitness »

help3434 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:53 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:08 pm
Can you not see how telling someone not to talk to anyone that might disagree with you might be considered limiting their legitimate right to information?

You mean like when God in the Bible said this:

Deuteronomy 13
1. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul

or

Jeremiah 23:16
Thus says the Lord of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.

or
Jeremiah 27:16
Then I spoke to the priests and to all this people, saying, “Thus says the Lord: Do not listen to the words of your prophets who prophesy to you, saying, ‘Behold, the vessels of the Lord’s house will now shortly be brought again from Babylon’; for they are prophesying a lie to you. ?

Seems like later on the Bible God did not care enough about free speech to stop Himself from warning people about deceivers.

"[W]arning people about deceivers" does not limit free speech. Being told not to "listen" to someone (as in do not believe and obey ) does not limit free speech. Logically the person must have been free to speak in order for his audience to judge whether they should listen or not.







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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #110

Post by help3434 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:25 pm


"[W]arning people about deceivers" does not limit free speech. Being told not to "listen" to someone (as in do not believe and obey ) does not limit free speech. Logically the person must have been free to speak in order for his audience to judge whether they should listen or not.



JW
So when Diagoras wrote:
Diagoras wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:17 pm 3) Warn Adam and Eve about snakes’ tendency to lie.
as one the things God could have done to prevent the fall, that would not have violated free speech, yet your reply to the post which had that option was:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:32 am

Do you know what free will is?

Do you know what the word "freedom" means?

What about "free speech" do those two words evoke anything whatsoever in your mind? Anything at all?



I ask because your considerations seem to be completely devoid of any indication that you know such concepts even exist? All your options are variations on the same idea namely, that of acting in a way that limits personal freedom.

Maybe we are presently sleepwalking into a world without freedom because society has so degraded it lacks the capacity to grasp when it is being threatened.



JW

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