Original Sin

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Miles
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Original Sin

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"Original sin is the Christian doctrine that humans inherit a tainted nature and a proclivity to sin through the fact of birth. Theologians have characterized this condition in many ways, seeing it as ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.

The doctrine of original sin began to emerge in the 3rd century but only became fully formed with the writings of Augustine of Hippo (354–430), who was the first author to use the phrase "original sin" (Latin: peccatum originale). Augustine's conception of original sin was based on a mistranslated passage in Paul the Apostle's Epistle to the Romans, and scholars have debated whether the passage supports Augustine's view.

Augustine's formulation of original sin became popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated original sin with concupiscence (or "hurtful desire"), affirming that it persisted even after baptism and completely destroyed freedom to do good and proposed that original sin involved a loss of free will except to sin.


Roman Catholicism
Catholic veiw: "Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.
By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin". As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence")


Lutheranism
The Lutheran Churches teach that original sin "is a root and fountain-head of all actual sins.
Martin Luther (1483–1546) asserted that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception.


Jehovah's Witnesses
The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race . This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin , and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12).
This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘ original sin ’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘ original sin ’ means.
source


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
(Mormon)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Methodism

Methodist theology teaches that a believer is made free from original sin when he/she is entirely sanctified.
(["entirely sanctified" or] Christian perfection is the name given to various teachings within Christianity that describe the process of achieving spiritual maturity or perfection. The ultimate goal of this process is union with God characterized by pure love of God and other people as well as personal holiness or sanctification.
source

Eastern Christianity
The Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic Churches' version of original sin is the view that sin originates with the Devil, "for the devil sins from the beginning (1 John iii. 8)".[74] The Eastern Church never subscribed to Augustine of Hippo's notions of original sin and hereditary guilt. The Church does not interpret "original sin" as having anything to do with transmitted guilt but with transmitted mortality. Because Adam sinned, all humanity shares not in his guilt but in the same punishment .
source unless otherwise indicated


So, what do think of original sin; a third century Christian doctrine created to invest salvation with greater significance, a concept of questionable value, or concocted hogwash?


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Re: Original Sin

Post #131

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:24 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pmOR . . . . . . has Jesus come down and judged every Jehovah's Witness, and only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians?
I think what can potentially reconcile this is the existence of a code set out by Jesus by which each individual has full access to knowledge about whether or not he himself follows it. So while it is up to Jesus, and while it would be impossible for one person to judge another because he doesn't know everything about said other, people who follow the moral code may say with confidence that they themselves are Christians, though of course nobody can confirm or deny about anybody else.

I do not, however, agree that there seems to be any such code. Or at least, it's not so definitive that there aren't a dozen types of Christian who all feel they are right and all the others are incorrect. If there was such a code, there would be that reconciliation. I just don't personally see that there is one. What I see is that even what the Pope says belies the staunch monolith of rules Christians go by, for one day, there can be limbo, and the next, limbo can disappear like a fart in the wind.

Now, if there was such a moral code, it would be more likely that the stricter sects such as Catholicism and JWs would be the ones following it, simply on the fact that as you follow more and more rules, you're more likely to have hit the correct nails on the head and be following all the necessary rules, even if you're just making up scores of rules at random and following them all. I also know that any sect that vacillates can't be infallible, since they must have either been incorrect before they changed their minds, or afterward. So the idea that there is perfect access to that information - which rules are genuine and true - seems unlikely.
Assuming any such moral code coming from Jesus would necessarily have to be in line with that of god I shudder at its rectitude:

Following god's examples it is moral to

Kill practicing male homosexuals
Own other human beings as personal property
Beat them as needed as long as they don't die from it in a day or two
Bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever
Dash infants to death
Rape the women of the losing side
Eat others (cannibalism)

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Re: Original Sin

Post #132

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pmIn other words, you, JW, can't say you're a Christian because you won't know until Jesus judges you to be so.
INCORRECT: I can say and make any claim I like at any time I so wish I believe I am a christian as I believe I have met the biblical criteria to be judged as one. I do not believe all that claim to be Christians are indeed Christians in anything but name. I believe most claims are illegitimate but that mine as one of Jehovahs Witnesses, is not.

I have a right to my beliefs and opinions but leave judgment in the hands of the Almighty where it belongs.
Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pm I take it then that no Jehovah's Witness claims to be a Christian.
You take it wrong (see above) The Official Jehohahs Witnesses position is as follows
"We come from hundreds of ethnic and language backgrounds, yet we are united by common goals. Above all, we want to honor Jehovah, the God of the Bible and the Creator of all things. We do our best to imitate Jesus Christ and are proud to be called Christians."
source



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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #133

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pm
. . . has Jesus come down and judged ... only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians?
Yes. We believe as of the year 1919, our organisation was indeed judged by Christ as being worthy to be chosen as the only true church on earth and thus only by associating with the Jehovahs Witnesses can one be considered an "authentic" Christian. It is for this reason that people formerly baptised with other churches have to be baptised again when they join us. We do not consider their other baptism(s) valid.
Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pm
. . . has Jesus come down and judged every Jehovah's Witness ...?
No. As individuals we have to constantly strive to live up to our calling. We do not ascribe to the dogma of "once saved ; always saved" and do not believe associating with Gods true congregation is a guarantee to be judged worthy of everlasting life (any more than not being a witness is a guarantee of condemnation). In short, when it comes to our individual worship and our prospects of everlasting life each individual whether one of Jehovah's Witnesses or not, will face judgement by God through Jesus.


FURTHER READING
Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Have the One True Religion??
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... -religion/

Are You Convinced That You Have the Truth? Why?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014682




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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #134

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:46 am
Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pmIn other words, you, JW, can't say you're a Christian because you won't know until Jesus judges you to be so.
INCORRECT: I can say and make any claim I like at any time I so wish I believe I am a christian as I believe I have met the biblical criteria to be judged as one. I do not believe all that claim to be Christians are indeed Christians in anything but name. I believe most claims are illegitimate but that mine as one of Jehovahs Witnesses, is not.

I have a right to my beliefs and opinions but leave judgment in the hands of the Almighty where it belongs.
Of course you can say and claim anything you want: that you're a mouse, that you have the strength of ten men, or, that you're a Christian; however, in light of the fact that you just got done saying

"No one claiming to be a Christian is really a true Christian until Jesus judges them to be so,"

you're claim of being a Christian is a hollow one, just as a claim to be a mouse or that you have the strength of ten men are hollow. And, your belief that you have met the biblical criteria to be judged as a Christian is no more meaningful than a belief that you're a mouse or that you have the strength of ten men. .. Belief does not = fact.

One question: Did Jesus come down and judge you to be a true Christian, JW?

Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:45 pm I take it then that no Jehovah's Witness claims to be a Christian.
You take it wrong (see above) The Official Jehohahs Witnesses position is as follows
"We come from hundreds of ethnic and language backgrounds, yet we are united by common goals. Above all, we want to honor Jehovah, the God of the Bible and the Creator of all things. We do our best to imitate Jesus Christ and are proud to be called Christians."
source
So considering your assertion that

"No one claiming to be a Christian is really a true Christian until Jesus judges them to be so,"

the Jehovah's Witnesses's are not really Christians at all, and their claim that they are Christians is entirely bogus. UNLESS, THAT IS, Jesus came down and judged every Jehovah's Witness, and only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians. Is that what happened?



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Re: Original Sin

Post #135

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:34 amAssuming any such moral code coming from Jesus would necessarily have to be in line with that of god I shudder at its rectitude
It is my understanding that Jesus abrogated much of the truly horrid stuff in the Old Testament. Stoning prostitutes to death for example. So while Jews would still be at least potentially permitted to do the things you mention (some of them might require a direct order from God), Christians would largely not. However, I still don't believe in a completely transparent Jesus Code due to differing interpretations.

I only know that often I can't decide between two interpretations of a passage (when JW pointed out that the children of blasphemers "to the third and fourth generation" were also assumed to themselves be blasphemers, I agree it could be read that way, so that's a good example), so either I am literally the stupidest person in the world, I'm being so dishonest that I've deluded even myself about whether the answer is obvious, or it really isn't that clear.
Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 pmthe Jehovah's Witnesses's are not necessarily really Christians at all,
Pretty much this fixes your assertion, I would assume, since nobody knows well enough to pass judgment on anyone else, either for the positive or for the negative.

And some of them are (at least, as far as I see) clearly not, since I pay attention to the documentaries about scandals people post on here.

But that doesn't stop their teachings from being correct and in line with whatever Jesus Code a believer thinks there is. As to whether that should stop people from saying they're that religion, I don't think so. I wouldn't stop saying I was an atheist even if it turned out Christopher Hitchens had raped a bunch of people. Now if it was a lot of prominent atheists, it might get seriously uncomfortable for me, but I believe what I believe.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #136

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 pm
the Jehovah's Witnesses's are not really Christians at all, and their claim that they are Christians is entirely bogus.
Opinion noted
Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 pm
...UNLESS, THAT IS, Jesus came down and judged every Jehovah's Witness, and only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians. Is that what happened?
I am not interested in addressing your false dichomies. I have already addressed the issue of judgement above.
viewtopic.php?p=1043288#p1043288

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #137

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 pm One question: Did Jesus come down and judge you to be a true Christian, JW?
Would you like to know what I believe on this question?



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Original Sin

Post #138

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:55 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 pm
the Jehovah's Witnesses's are not really Christians at all, and their claim that they are Christians is entirely bogus.
Opinion noted
Not an opinion at all. Just a matter of fallowing the trail: A -> B -> C -> D. . . . It's almost syllogistic in its simplicity.

Miles wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 pm
...UNLESS, THAT IS, Jesus came down and judged every Jehovah's Witness, and only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians. Is that what happened?
I am not interested in addressing your false dichomies.
Nah, you've put yourself in a corner and are using false dichotomies as an excuse for not giving a coherent answer to my question.

In answer to my question

"Has Jesus come down and judged every Jehovah's Witness, and only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians?"

You said "Yes." Period!---full stop!



And in answer to my question

"Has Jesus come down and judged every Jehovah's Witness, and only JWs I presume, to be authentic Christians?"

you said "No." Period!---full stop!


So if he hasn't judged every Jehovah's Witness how could he have judged every Jehovah's Witness?

I have already addressed the issue of judgement above.
viewtopic.php?p=1043288#p1043288
Yes, and with a blatant contradiction no less, but if this is the best you have then so be it.

SOURCE for everything quoted: viewtopic.php?p=1043288#p1043288



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Re: Original Sin

Post #139

Post by Revelations won »

To whom igt may concern,

I think Miles has raised some vey serious thought provoking questions regarding the claims of original sin.

For starters, wherein does Augustine or others mentioned have any authority to establish this third century doctrine?

As we examine this alleged "first sin doctrine", it seems obvious that Adam's transgression was certainly not the "original sin" as some have proclaimed. Is it not blatantly obvious that Lucifer committed the first sin and all those who followed after him?

If Lucifer was in the garden of eden then sin was in the world before any accusation could be leveled against Adam.

My position is very clear on the position that God never makes a mistake and His plans are never frustrated! He does not have to rely on any backup plan for the destiny of his children!

Here is a question that I pose to all: Why would an all wise and all knowing God Cast Lucifer or the devil out of heaven and send them to this particular earth where we dwell?

Why would he not ban them to some other remote solar system or planet?

Let's hear your clear answers.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Original Sin

Post #140

Post by Miles »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:22 am
My position is very clear on the position that God never makes a mistake . . . .
Well, that's just not accurate. God has even admitted to making mistakes.

Genesis 6:6
And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

1 Samuel 15:35
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Jeremiah 42:10
‘If you will just remain in this land, I’ll build you up and not pull you down. I’ll plant you and not uproot you, for I’m sorry about the disaster I’ve brought on you.

Amos 7:1-3
The Lord God showed me this: He was forming a swarm of locusts at the time the spring crop first began to sprout—after the cutting of the king’s hay.
2And it came to pass, when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, “O Lord God, forgive, I beseech Thee! By whom shall Jacob arise? For he is small.”
3The Lord repented concerning this. “It shall not be,” saith the Lord.


People just don't regret, repent, or feel sorry for what they did if they're not mistakes.


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