Original Sin

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Miles
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Original Sin

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"Original sin is the Christian doctrine that humans inherit a tainted nature and a proclivity to sin through the fact of birth. Theologians have characterized this condition in many ways, seeing it as ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.

The doctrine of original sin began to emerge in the 3rd century but only became fully formed with the writings of Augustine of Hippo (354–430), who was the first author to use the phrase "original sin" (Latin: peccatum originale). Augustine's conception of original sin was based on a mistranslated passage in Paul the Apostle's Epistle to the Romans, and scholars have debated whether the passage supports Augustine's view.

Augustine's formulation of original sin became popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated original sin with concupiscence (or "hurtful desire"), affirming that it persisted even after baptism and completely destroyed freedom to do good and proposed that original sin involved a loss of free will except to sin.


Roman Catholicism
Catholic veiw: "Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.
By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin". As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence")


Lutheranism
The Lutheran Churches teach that original sin "is a root and fountain-head of all actual sins.
Martin Luther (1483–1546) asserted that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception.


Jehovah's Witnesses
The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race . This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin , and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12).
This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘ original sin ’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘ original sin ’ means.
source


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
(Mormon)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Methodism

Methodist theology teaches that a believer is made free from original sin when he/she is entirely sanctified.
(["entirely sanctified" or] Christian perfection is the name given to various teachings within Christianity that describe the process of achieving spiritual maturity or perfection. The ultimate goal of this process is union with God characterized by pure love of God and other people as well as personal holiness or sanctification.
source

Eastern Christianity
The Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic Churches' version of original sin is the view that sin originates with the Devil, "for the devil sins from the beginning (1 John iii. 8)".[74] The Eastern Church never subscribed to Augustine of Hippo's notions of original sin and hereditary guilt. The Church does not interpret "original sin" as having anything to do with transmitted guilt but with transmitted mortality. Because Adam sinned, all humanity shares not in his guilt but in the same punishment .
source unless otherwise indicated


So, what do think of original sin; a third century Christian doctrine created to invest salvation with greater significance, a concept of questionable value, or concocted hogwash?


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Re: Original Sin

Post #41

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:43 pm Did God's eternal plan for mankind include mortality as a part and parcel thereof?
No, I dont believe so. Death was uniquement presented in Eden as a punishment for disobedience. Logically then, they would not have died had they remained obedient.

Revelations won wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:43 pm
Did God's eternal plan for mankind provide a predetermined and clear and powerful solution to completely overcome the effects of the"fall"?


Yes, the coming of the promised seed mentioned in Genesis 3:15 would reverse the ill effects of the Edenic rebellion and restore mankind to perfection.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

2timothy316
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Re: Original Sin

Post #42

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Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:15 pm
Knowing the consequences does not equal knowledge of good and evil.
But it does tell you what you should and shouldn't do, it is also giving someone the option to obey or disobey. The tree itself didn't give then the knowledge of good and bad. It was a teaching tool on how to learn to follow a commandment. It is likely they already knew what good and bad was.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #43

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Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:15 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:39 amThere was no confusion as to what the commandment was. Just because there are no tow trucks or never had you car towed doesn't mean you don't know the law. The Bible says that Eve was deceived thinking there wouldn't be any punishment. However, she knew what the law was because she repeated it and then broke it. This is very simple stuff and it's not as complex as you'd like it to be. Eve wasn't ignorant of the law.
I really, really like the tow truck example. Imagine that you know the law. Then I, a great deceiver, don myself a safety vest and start driving a tow truck around. Then I tell you, it's okay buddy, I see you're having trouble finding a spot. You can totally park there. You won't get towed away, honest.

You no longer know the law because I have confused you into thinking it wasn't really the law as you seem to understand it, which means what you'll get punished for.

Arguably Eve had at least one reason to believe God over the Serpent (that God created them and gave them a nice garden to live in), but this isn't proof that the Serpent was lying and God was telling the truth.
Satan didn't say he was there speaking for God. The Bible says that she just noted that the snake was known for it's caution. Also, I highly doubt she has heard an animal talk before. This should have been alarming. It would be like if a fire hydrant started speaking. So I can't agree with the guy in safety vest and tow truck addition. The snake didn't say he was there under official business. It would be more like if a fire hydrant was convincing you that you're missing out on parking in the tow away zone. Like something good is being kept from away from everyone.

She didn't ask anyone for proof or for verification. She didn't approach God and ask, "is what this snake saying true?". She didn't as her husband either. Confusion doesn't seem to be the issue. It seems like she wanted to eat from it but the fear of death was keeping her from it. Satan however apparently had been watching her fixate on the tree. Some even speculate that the snake was resting on the tree itself and it wasn't dying. While thinking there would be no consequences isn't proof she knew good from bad, it's not proof that didn't know it either. We have to rely that the Bible is true when it says Jehovah God, "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he." - Deut 32:4. If we trust the Bible is the word of God and has final authority in this matter, then we can trust that God would never give a law to someone that couldn't understand or incapable of obeying it.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #44

Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:15 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:19 amGod doesn't need to know what is good or bad there are no laws on Him, He declares what IS good and bad.
Absolutely correct. This is what makes God, God... and not some random super-entity you might find in science-fiction.
This is what A&E seemed to want. Wanting to have the power to determine good and bad like God had. Remember, that is what Satan was promising they would have. Mankind got that ability. How have we fared with it?

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Re: Original Sin

Post #45

Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:15 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:15 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:19 amGod doesn't need to know what is good or bad there are no laws on Him, He declares what IS good and bad.
Absolutely correct. This is what makes God, God... and not some random super-entity you might find in science-fiction.
This is what A&E seemed to want. Wanting to have the power to determine good and bad like God had. Remember, that is what Satan was promising they would have. Mankind got that ability. How have we fared with it?
I can't answer that until all of mankind has that ability. A few having it and determining good and evil for everyone else is just a test of the morality of those few. I didn't get an apple and my way didn't get a test. The way of other humans is getting a test.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 amWhile thinking there would be no consequences isn't proof she knew good from bad, it's not proof that didn't know it either.
It absolutely does if you believe evil or wrong is simply what you'll get punished for. And it illustrates that you, Timothy, know full well that there is good and evil beyond reward and punishment, and that you expect Eve to know that as well. You expect Eve to choose obedience over disobedience not because of consequences, but because of right and wrong.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #46

Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:37 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:15 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:15 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:19 amGod doesn't need to know what is good or bad there are no laws on Him, He declares what IS good and bad.
Absolutely correct. This is what makes God, God... and not some random super-entity you might find in science-fiction.
This is what A&E seemed to want. Wanting to have the power to determine good and bad like God had. Remember, that is what Satan was promising they would have. Mankind got that ability. How have we fared with it?
I can't answer that until all of mankind has that ability. A few having it and determining good and evil for everyone else is just a test of the morality of those few. I didn't get an apple and my way didn't get a test. The way of other humans is getting a test.
The Bible's answer:
"Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad." - Gen 3:22
"Man has dominated man to his injury.” - Ecclesiastes 8:9

As for the as an individual person, we all have choices to make. We make them everyday.
"But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." - James 1:14
Yet what guides us is a conscience as the Bible calls it, 'a law to ourselves'. Even if a person as been taught nothing of what God or society calls good or bad we still are accusing or excusing ourselves of what is best for us.
"For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused." - Romans 2:14
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 amWhile thinking there would be no consequences isn't proof she knew good from bad, it's not proof that didn't know it either.
It absolutely does if you believe evil or wrong is simply what you'll get punished for. And it illustrates that you, Timothy, know full well that there is good and evil beyond reward and punishment, and that you expect Eve to know that as well. You expect Eve to choose obedience over disobedience not because of consequences, but because of right and wrong.
I suspect A&E knew full well that obeying was good and disobeying was wrong. Why people think to follow one rule is just soooooo hard, is not a strong case. To know EVERYTHING good and bad wasn't the test. God needed to know if they'd obey. Would they follow Him or would they not. Yet just as James 1:14 says, people have the option to focus on their own desires and that is what A&E did. So saying that A&E didn't understand how to obey there would have to be Biblical evidence but all Biblical evidence points they didn't.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #47

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2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:46 pmAs for the as an individual person, we all have choices to make. We make them everyday.
The fact that people can choose wrongly doesn't run counter to anything I said. Others have the moral authority to make right and wrong, but I do not, so I must follow them. My way was never tested and I never got an apple. I can act like I have that moral authority but if I do, I'm just wrong. Morality has already been decided.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:46 pmI suspect A&E knew full well that obeying was good and disobeying was wrong.
I find it hard to believe because I don't know that. I live in a world where disobedience is good and the police - the authorities - are evil, precisely because they treat me well. Better than I deserve. I'm one of the people who probably shouldn't believe in Critical Race Theory or oppression because I don't break the law and I don't get punished. But the law is hurting people who aren't me, so disobedience > obedience.

When I see a serpent crawling into my perfect world to burst my bubble, I listen, because I'm not the only one who matters. I live in a world where everything I have ever experienced has taught me that the guy who just gives you everything and favours you and hides all the horrors from you is never, ever a good guy. He's evil, and so am I for accepting all that stuff I never deserved.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:46 pmWhy people think to follow one rule is just soooooo hard, is not a strong case.
Maybe it's not. It was easy to follow a rule. You can make the case that temptation won out over what they knew was good which was following that rule. The story seems to indicate that. I just can't help noticing the lack of anything but fear she would die on Eve's part and perhaps judging by what I have learnt and concluding that she had no way to know what obedience was inherently better than disobedience.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #48

Post by Diagoras »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 am The Bible says that she just noted that the snake was known for it's caution.
Which verse mentions the snake’s caution?
I highly doubt she has heard an animal talk before.
Are you basing this assertion on the fact that the bible doesn’t explicitly state that animals talked before Eve confronted the snake? Absence of evidence doesn’t equal evidence of absence.
It seems like she wanted to eat from it but the fear of death was keeping her from it.
Which verse details Eve’s fear of death?
Satan however apparently had been watching her fixate on the tree.
Please support the assertion that a) this snake was Satan, and b) the snake had watched Eve ‘fixate’ on the tree.
Some even speculate that the snake was resting on the tree itself and it wasn't dying.
I’m a bit confused. Is speculation allowed now?
We have to rely that the Bible is true when it says Jehovah God, "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he." - Deut 32:4.
Why should the Song of Moses, taught by God to Moses to tell the Israelites not to go off and worship other gods, have much relevance to Eve’s situation?
If we trust the Bible is the word of God and has final authority in this matter, then we can trust that God would never give a law to someone that couldn't understand or incapable of obeying it.
I leave it up to the reader to decide whether the bewildering number of often contradictory websites, faith denominations and scholarly articles existing today supports the idea that God’s law is understood by everyone.

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Re: Original Sin

Post #49

Post by Diagoras »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:15 am Wanting to have the power to determine good and bad like God had. Remember, that is what Satan was promising they would have. Mankind got that ability. How have we fared with it?
Pretty good, actually. Why not test yourself on a few things, here:?

https://www.gapminder.org/

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Re: Original Sin

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:10 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 am The Bible says that she just noted that the snake was known for it's caution.
Which verse mentions the snake’s caution?
"Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made." - Gen 3:1

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