Forgiveness, a Christian calling card?

[achilles12604]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_ ... l_shooting

In years past, forgiveness was central to Christian lives. Lately, I am sensing much less forgiveness from the majority of Christains I know personally. They are becoming less forgiving in my opinion. However, as noted in this article and in other reports and interviews I have seen, the Amish are extreamly forgiving of a man that everyone else condemns, even after his actions hurt the Amish directly.

My questions are

1) Are Christian's becoming less forgiving as a group? Is there a trend happening here?

2) If yes, why? Why are some Christains becoming less forgiving while others are still amazing? What is the difference and what causes this?

[Confused]

Here, my son has medical probems that are weekly costs, my daughter and I both have CML which is treated with Gleevac which with two insurance coverage (mine and her dads) we still pay out of pocket 1700 dollars a month for. It isn't possible for a single working family without extreme hardship. My mom raised all us (9 kids) solo in Alaska, many nights we had no dinner, many nights we huddled to keep warm. A one parent working family in the US is the exception rather than the rule.

But even so, if I stayed at home and did nothing by concentrate on my son, it still wouldn't be enough. It would likely be hazardous to both our health. But I can honestly say, I have never had any Chrisitian step up to offer assistance, only condemnation. (not saying all Christians are like this, biker is even an exception at this moment).

Wow, that is intense. $1700 p mth? Thats insane. I understand the obvious need to work then. It sounds like you might need financial assitance in the least

Be thankful for trust funds.

[methylatedghosts]

Here, my son has medical probems that are weekly costs, my daughter and I both have CML which is treated with Gleevac which with two insurance coverage (mine and her dads) we still pay out of pocket 1700 dollars a month for. It isn't possible for a single working family without extreme hardship. My mom raised all us (9 kids) solo in Alaska, many nights we had no dinner, many nights we huddled to keep warm. A one parent working family in the US is the exception rather than the rule.

But even so, if I stayed at home and did nothing by concentrate on my son, it still wouldn't be enough. It would likely be hazardous to both our health. But I can honestly say, I have never had any Chrisitian step up to offer assistance, only condemnation. (not saying all Christians are like this, biker is even an exception at this moment).

Wow, that is intense. $1700 p mth? Thats insane. I understand the obvious need to work then. It sounds like you might need financial assitance in the least

Be thankful for trust funds.

Well, you have my best wishes, hopes and thoughts.

[topaz]

Save your prayers. Tina's son died 2 months later from complication of that car accident. She learned how he cared for her.

What ? This is shocking ! I am sorry to hear about Tina’s boy.

1-Does Tina attend a tongue-speaking church ?
2-Is she a tongue-speaker ?

Huh? What is a tongue-speaker/church? Isn't speaking in a different tongue just speaking in a different language? i.e. English vs. Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin?

A tongue-speaker is a Holy Spirit indwelt christian. The Holy Spirit speaks through such a person in a language that the person is not acquainted with, to communicate with the party who speaks the language. Read Acts 2 at pentecost, what happened.

… then take my word for this: I have put my entire heart and soul into seeking Christ for help. What I found after several years was a feeling of rejection, like I was not good enough, because never once did I feel his presence. I tried. I sought.

Hmm … I believe you. I know God can turn His face away and we feel it. I have been there. Instead of losing faith, u/stand that if we persist, He will relent, He will COOL DOWN and then you will feel it. Then the RELATIONSHIP gets mended. In my life, I would ask God what I have done wrong, to reveal it to me. Then I can repent of it.

So God, the all-loving being, sometimes "turns away"? What for?

God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable.

[melikio]

God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable.

The problem with this view (what I've seen in the most practical sense), is that many so-called followers of the Bible, amount to people who learn a few things, then become poised to stand in judgement over others.

Many assume they actually KNOW the heart/mind of those they would judge or condemn; not only that, they are effective (at least in their own minds) in justifying their standing over others, convinced they are truly morally superior. The way many of these people interact with others supports the idea that they are apt to REJECT those they think or believe are "unteachable" or "unrepentable" (whatever that word means).

I respect the commitment and right of Christians to hold the views they do, but there is the reality that they (many many Christians) are NOT necessarily or particularly compassionate, forgiving or loving people. I have listened closely to people for a relatively long time (over 38 years); and not to burst anyone's romantic view of what they believe a "Christian" is, they are NOT always the BEST (most kind, helpful or positive) people in the world.

In my general experience, if you meet a Christian who is bent upon religion (legalistic approaches) as opposed to "relationships" (grace-oriented), I've learned that those are typically people I tend to or need to avoid. There is something I find to be DRAINING in their overall view and approach to life. And that is likely because I find myself guarding my heart/mind from those people directly; it can be a terrible experience. With (legalistic) people you can NEVER be good enough for them; they don't really care where you've been or what you've gone through to get to where you happen to be. They typically care obsessively about whether or not you CONFORM to the standards that they hold to be applicable. It's just plain oppressive being around those people, who somehow believe that "God" has written someone else off ("turned away" from them); "thinking" or "believing" God has rejected or condemned someone. The reality is that they DO NOT really know (and it's hard to convince them of that). I think that if they trusted God as much as they claim to, they would know (in love) how to let go and let God. And this is important, because the END of any fellow human being's ROPE, cannot "extend" as far as God's grace clearly does.

Those people are so obsessed with the people they think/believe are "disobeying" God, that they overemphasize the behavior of others, rather than tending to the more important aspect of their OWN ACTIONS (and attitudes) stemming from the condition of their hearts. They are typically seeking power/control over other human beings and grasping it in whatever ways they can manage to possess it. And interestingly enough, if they could zoomn out just a little bit, they might see that (such authority or influence) is GOD'S PROVIDENCE (not their own).

For there are many (unique) ideal views of Christianity, related service or "obedience" to God; even "Christians" agree/disagree about this. Even so, when I take a look at how Jesus was (in include many biblical "interpretations"), He was far more loving, forgiving, undestanding, wise and compassionate than most "Christians" I've ever known. And it seems far too many Christians are VERY quick to judge and imagine that they can/do speak for God Himself (concerning where another person is or isn't); when in reality they couldn't actually do better than to pursue the "good religion" Jesus described when acked about it.

Being gay and having struggled with it for many decades (until recently), I've quiety experienced the best and worst of many "Christians". To say the least, it literally affected my "faith". It's hard to see people as being followers of Jesus, when one side of them is more like a hungry WOLF or ruthless moral-juggernaut than the fully-compassionate Savior who died for even the greatest sinners the world would know.

I'm not anti-Christian; I actualy see myself as a follower of Jesus. But I'm so tired of people thinking that their WORDS carry more weight than their ACTIONS (practically applied mindsets). And I understand that Christians aren't "perfect", but I can't help but question the reality that some people think (or act as if) "quotes" from the "Good Book", are actually a substitute for the good people they should strive to be (more Jesus-like). Instead, so many are out here pretending to BE God, or are apparently poised to evoke some level of "AUTHORITY" over others, which they do not even remotely possess. Ultimately once skeptics, unbelievers and the fallen see "Christianity" trailing in the WAKE of all the hurt and damage such authoritarian believers/followers have exuded upon others, those very same people are somehow taken aback, when what they believe or follow is rejected (out of hand).

Bottom line: there is a massive difference (in my view) between the effect of Jesus upon mankind (even to this very day), and the so-called "Christianity" many would and have IMPOSED upon others. So, when I see a statement like,

"God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable."

I think it is more than reasonable for likely ANY human being to question the "angles" (many underlying nuances) represented by such a statement.

-Mel-

[Confused]

Save your prayers. Tina's son died 2 months later from complication of that car accident. She learned how he cared for her.

What ? This is shocking ! I am sorry to hear about Tina’s boy.

1-Does Tina attend a tongue-speaking church ?
2-Is she a tongue-speaker ?

Huh? What is a tongue-speaker/church? Isn't speaking in a different tongue just speaking in a different language? i.e. English vs. Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin?

A tongue-speaker is a Holy Spirit indwelt christian. The Holy Spirit speaks through such a person in a language that the person is not acquainted with, to communicate with the party who speaks the language. Read Acts 2 at pentecost, what happened.

… then take my word for this: I have put my entire heart and soul into seeking Christ for help. What I found after several years was a feeling of rejection, like I was not good enough, because never once did I feel his presence. I tried. I sought.

Hmm … I believe you. I know God can turn His face away and we feel it. I have been there. Instead of losing faith, u/stand that if we persist, He will relent, He will COOL DOWN and then you will feel it. Then the RELATIONSHIP gets mended. In my life, I would ask God what I have done wrong, to reveal it to me. Then I can repent of it.

So God, the all-loving being, sometimes "turns away"? What for?

God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable.

Then tell me, why can't God seem to make his presence known so we know we are in fact defying something. Most Christians I know here are so full of their own self righteousness that to question anything is paramount to being unteachable and unrepentable. It is statements like this that keeps me in a consistent state of confusion. You sit to judge me, you have no right to judge me. You sit to tell me of Gods codemnation of me, when you have not spoken to God to know this. You persist in your "seek and you will find" then doubt my honesty in my search when I fail to find. Tell me, when did Christians stop preaching love and start passing judgement? When did they stop turning the other cheek and start persecuting those who dare to question them or the bible?

[topaz]

God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable.

The problem with this view (what I've seen in the most practical sense), is that many so-called followers of the Bible, amount to people who learn a few things, then become poised to stand in judgement over others.

Well, I was sharing my own experience. You, however, are judging me and you will, indeed, be judged.

Many assume they actually KNOW the heart/mind of those they would judge or condemn; not only that, they are effective (at least in their own minds) in justifying their standing over others, convinced they are truly morally superior. The way many of these people interact with others supports the idea that they are apt to REJECT those they think or believe are "unteachable" or "unrepentable" (whatever that word means).

I see you are hard put to u/stand the word ‘unrepentable’. How then could you comprehend my message ? Should it surprise me that you pass judgment on others whom you do not even comprehend ?

In my general experience, if you meet a Christian who is bent upon religion (legalistic approaches) as opposed to "relationships" (grace-oriented), I've learned that those are typically people I tend to or need to avoid.

Excuse me, you’re preaching grace … where is it … I don’t see it in your words and … instead of avoiding me as you would like to, you are persecuting me with words instead.

With (legalistic) people you can NEVER be good enough for them;

huh ? … good enough for ME ??? … lol

they don't really care where you've been or what you've gone through to get to where you happen to be.

Methinks you’re speaking for yourself … using your very words … do YOU care where I have been and what I have gone through to get to where I happen to be now ? You hate those who disagree with you. You put yourself higher than everybody else when you say ‘they don’t really care …’ as if you are different from them … and you care … what crap !

They typically care obsessively about whether or not you CONFORM to the standards that they hold to be applicable.

This tells me that you don’t believe the Law is valid.

It's just plain oppressive being around those people, who somehow believe that "God" has written someone else off ("turned away" from them); "thinking" or "believing" God has rejected or condemned someone. The reality is that they DO NOT really know (and it's hard to convince them of that). I think that if they trusted God as much as they claim to, they would know (in love) how to let go and let God. And this is important, because the END of any fellow human being's ROPE, cannot "extend" as far as God's grace clearly does.

First, you cannot u/stand the word ‘unrepentable’. Now, you’re showing that you don’t u/stand what ‘oppressive’ means ‘It's just plain oppressive being around those people … ‘. How can I oppress someone whom I have no authority over ? yikes, should I continue this with you …

Being gay and having struggled with it for many decades (until recently), I've quiety experienced the best and worst of many "Christians". To say the least, it literally affected my "faith". It's hard to see people as being followers of Jesus, when one side of them is more like a hungry WOLF or ruthless moral-juggernaut than the fully-compassionate Savior who died for even the greatest sinners the world would know.

Ah … so this is what it’s all about. I can see why you hate the legal view.
Christ judges us through the Law. I judge no one. God forbid. But b/c I present the Law, YOU judge me as playing magistrate. How nice of you …finger-pointing others … It is people like you whose voices have reached a critical mass that have caused laws to change, making a prophecy of Revelation come to pass. Scary.

An exegesis of the Law is meant to illumine the unlearned, dark mind to repent. When you say christians are uncompassionate, you mean we must accept your sin but since we don’t it has affected your faith. Excuse me, faith is a personal relationship with Christ that has NOTHING to do with the relationship of other believers and yourself.

You toy with words to evoke compassion, you want people to accept sin, and the next thing is … you desolate them b/c of their acceptance of sin. This is so very typically, satan. The ignorant among us will fall for your ploy.

We are sinners too and we stand against the sin in us. We repent. It takes tears, blood and Mt 18:9 describe what we do to stop the sin in us. You, however, evoke pity and then you desolate them who pity you, by changing laws so that future generations would come from a background where both parents are of the same gender. You tell me if I should pity a handful of desolaters or save the rest of the human race.

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

I'm not anti-Christian; I actualy see myself as a follower of Jesus. But I'm so tired of people thinking that their WORDS carry more weight than their ACTIONS (practically applied mindsets). And I understand that Christians aren't "perfect", but I can't help but question the reality that some people think (or act as if) "quotes" from the "Good Book", are actually a substitute for the good people they should strive to be (more Jesus-like). Instead, so many are out here pretending to BE God, or are apparently poised to evoke some level of "AUTHORITY" over others, which they do not even remotely possess. Ultimately once skeptics, unbelievers and the fallen see "Christianity" trailing in the WAKE of all the hurt and damage such authoritarian believers/followers have exuded upon others, those very same people are somehow taken aback, when what they believe or follow is rejected (out of hand).

‘I'm not anti-Christian’ … don’t give me this crap. Your words are stout against God’s people. You try to evoke pity but truly trying to mask the ‘roaring lion’. Now telling us that we play ‘god’ … how dare you make such blasphemous statements.

Bottom line: there is a massive difference (in my view) between the effect of Jesus upon mankind (even to this very day), and the so-called "Christianity" many would and have IMPOSED upon others. So, when I see a statement like,

"God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable."

I think it is more than reasonable for likely ANY human being to question the "angles" (many underlying nuances) represented by such a statement.

You cannot compare Jesus with humans. See how illogical you are. Are you done with your diatribe. You think the world must accept you as you are, sin and all. The above verse in red shows you how we, christians, deal with the sin in ourselves. We don’t cry and evoke pity from others. Nice ploy.

[topaz]

Then tell me, why can't God seem to make his presence known so we know we are in fact defying something. Most Christians I know here are so full of their own self righteousness that to question anything is paramount to being unteachable and unrepentable. It is statements like this that keeps me in a consistent state of confusion. You sit to judge me, you have no right to judge me. You sit to tell me of Gods codemnation of me, when you have not spoken to God to know this. You persist in your "seek and you will find" then doubt my honesty in my search when I fail to find. Tell me, when did Christians stop preaching love and start passing judgement? When did they stop turning the other cheek and start persecuting those who dare to question them or the bible?

Right … so I am judging you now ? I am talking from my own experience. You don’t tend to discuss or debate but to quarrel, to be invective. Perhaps you don’t know how to be nice. You are frustrated with your life. Take it out on yourself ! I owe you nothing.

[methylatedghosts]

They typically care obsessively about whether or not you CONFORM to the standards that they hold to be applicable.

This tells me that you don’t believe the Law is valid.

I would agree with you. But I also agree with melikio. But so what if melikio does not believe the "Law" is valid. I don't either. There is just as likely a chance that what you believe is wrong, as anyone else.

It's just plain oppressive being around those people, who somehow believe that "God" has written someone else off ("turned away" from them); "thinking" or "believing" God has rejected or condemned someone,. The reality is that they DO NOT really know (and it's hard to convince them of that). I think that if they trusted God as much as they claim to, they would know (in love) how to let go and let God. And this is important, because the END of any fellow human being's ROPE, cannot "extend" as far as God's grace clearly does.

First, you cannot u/stand the word ‘unrepentable’. Now, you’re showing that you don’t u/stand what ‘oppressive’ means ‘It's just plain oppressive being around those people … ‘. How can I oppress someone whom I have no authority over ? yikes, should I continue this with you …

By taking an authoritative stance. You don't have to be an authority to take an authoritative stance. Many Christians are also very intimidating when they are trying to force their "Law" down your throat. I have had personaly experience with that, and it is horrible.

Being gay and having struggled with it for many decades (until recently), I've quiety experienced the best and worst of many "Christians". To say the least, it literally affected my "faith". It's hard to see people as being followers of Jesus, when one side of them is more like a hungry WOLF or ruthless moral-juggernaut than the fully-compassionate Savior who died for even the greatest sinners the world would know.

Ah … so this is what it’s all about. I can see why you hate the legal view.
Christ judges us through the Law. I judge no one. God forbid. But b/c I present the Law, YOU judge me as playing magistrate. How nice of you …finger-pointing others … It is people like you whose voices have reached a critical mass that have caused laws to change, making a prophecy of Revelation come to pass. Scary.

Many Christians say they are representing this "Law". The problem is, that some do it so forcefully, that you feel you need to nod and agree, else their head might explode. Force is not something Jesus used. I cannot comprehend how the "son of a loving God" would use any sort of force to "help" a "dark mind repent". However some of these people who claim to be representing Jesus, do this.

An exegesis of the Law is meant to illumine the unlearned, dark mind to repent. When you say christians are uncompassionate, you mean we must accept your sin but since we don’t it has affected your faith. Excuse me, faith is a personal relationship with Christ that has NOTHING to do with the relationship of other believers and yourself.

No, what is meant, is that it is possible for a person to accept another for Who They Are. A loving person does not care about anothers past. A loving person does not worry about whatever "sin" might also affect them.

You toy with words to evoke compassion, you want people to accept sin, and the next thing is … you desolate them b/c of their acceptance of sin. This is so very typically, satan. The ignorant among us will fall for your ploy.

What is wanted is for people to accept others for who they are. You can do this, even without accepting "sin". Is it not a mission of Christianity to "save" others? How can this be possible if you do not accept people for Who They Are, with or without "sin"? How are these "sinners" supposed to learn what Christianity is all about if believers don't accept them and teach them? It's like sitting on the opposite side of the room because one person smells bad instead of offering soap and a shower.

We are sinners too and we stand against the sin in us. We repent. It takes tears, blood and Mt 18:9 describe what we do to stop the sin in us. You, however, evoke pity and then you desolate them who pity you, by changing laws so that future generations would come from a background where both parents are of the same gender. You tell me if I should pity a handful of desolaters or save the rest of the human race.

It isn't about pity. People do not generally want pity. They want to belong. People want to feel like someone loves them. People want to feel important enough that they know someone can be there for them. What is so wrong about same-gender marriages. It doesn't hurt you. It doesn't hurt anyone. If you ask me, people in same-gender marriages are more accepting of others than other groups can be, because they know what it is like to be "cast aside" like the ugliest duckling. But there are no ugly ducklings in the human race. Everyone has the same beautiful light inside. The same diamond. No-one is less deserving of love than another.

Bottom line: there is a massive difference (in my view) between the effect of Jesus upon mankind (even to this very day), and the so-called "Christianity" many would and have IMPOSED upon others. So, when I see a statement like,

"God turns away when we consistently disobey Him, ie. persist in being unteachable, unrepentable."

I think it is more than reasonable for likely ANY human being to question the "angles" (many underlying nuances) represented by such a statement.

You cannot compare Jesus with humans. See how illogical you are. Are you done with your diatribe. You think the world must accept you as you are, sin and all. The above verse in red shows you how we, christians, deal with the sin in ourselves. We don’t cry and evoke pity from others. Nice ploy.

Why not compare Jesus with humans? I thought he was human? I'd personally like to see more comparing. Wouldn't that mean we're all becoming better people? Isn't christianity all about trying to be like Jesus? So why can you not compare Jesus to other people.

Why can the world not accept someone for Who They Are? So, you think someone has alot of sin. So what? If there is someone or something you don't agree with, move towards it. Find out why you do not agree. Get to know the person/people involved. Truly get to know them. You will find that "sinners" are just as likely as Christians to be nice people. Learn their viewpoints. Understand and accept what they are saying and where they are coming from. But don't push them away. Don't put up walls. Build your bridges all over the world. Love others like there is no one else to love. Let them be their own person and let them grow where they want. Let them polish their own diamonds inside so that their love can radiate from within. Let them know what it is like to receive love from YOU. You are another of Gods lights, as is everyone else. You are another of Gods diamonds, just like everyone else. There is no need to fight, if you would just open your heart to the world. Become open, lie naked and exposed for the world to see (I don't mean physically), and others will be attracted to your love.

[Confused]

Then tell me, why can't God seem to make his presence known so we know we are in fact defying something. Most Christians I know here are so full of their own self righteousness that to question anything is paramount to being unteachable and unrepentable. It is statements like this that keeps me in a consistent state of confusion. You sit to judge me, you have no right to judge me. You sit to tell me of Gods codemnation of me, when you have not spoken to God to know this. You persist in your "seek and you will find" then doubt my honesty in my search when I fail to find. Tell me, when did Christians stop preaching love and start passing judgement? When did they stop turning the other cheek and start persecuting those who dare to question them or the bible?

Right … so I am judging you now ? I am talking from my own experience. You don’t tend to discuss or debate but to quarrel, to be invective. Perhaps you don’t know how to be nice. You are frustrated with your life. Take it out on yourself ! I owe you nothing.

Whoa, did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed? I am sorry if you took my remarks as a personal attack. Honestly, they weren't meant to be. I never meant for any of those examples to be directed towards you. I don't know you well enough to even consider judging you. Those were general characteristics they I see a lot of in the Christians I know in this area only. Unless I know you and you live in the panhandle of florida, these were in no way directed towards you. I have never had issues with your posts. Most have been very enlightening, though I recall we have disagreed on some. But never disrespectfully. I am very sorry if I offended you. I was only making reference to my personal experiences here. You are right, you owe me nothing. But I still apologize.

[melikio]

You, however, are judging me and you will, indeed, be judged.

No, I’m not doing that; I don’t know you. What I was (and am) emphasizing, is that too many “Christians” think they can read things that only God actually can. I wasn’t talking about YOU per se; if I were, I would have directed the comments AT you specifically.
Even so, I can’t consider my writing perfect and I suppose I can surely be misunderstood from time to time.

I see you are hard put to u/stand the word ‘unrepentable’. How then could you comprehend my message ? Should it surprise me that you pass judgment on others whom you do not even comprehend ?

Please use REAL words, and you will be understood better (most likely). I knew what you meant (generally speaking), but it would have helped to use some other word besides “unrepentable”.

Excuse me, you’re preaching grace … where is it … I don’t see it in your words and … instead of avoiding me as you would like to, you are persecuting me with words instead.

If I met/knew you, I would give you the benefit of the doubt, period. You don’t have to believe that, but I’m telling you (here) that I would. Take it, or leave it.

huh ? … good enough for ME ??? … lol

Not “funny” to me (I was dead-serious); but I can’t stop you from seeing humor in whatever you’re thinking; and I’m not going to try.

Methinks you’re speaking for yourself … using your very words … do YOU care where I have been and what I have gone through to get to where I happen to be now ? You hate those who disagree with you. You put yourself higher than everybody else when you say ‘they don’t really care …’ as if you are different from them … and you care … what crap !

I really don’t know where you are coming from. Go back, re-read my “diatribe”, and see IF I directed anything toward YOU (per se). Please don’t continue to over-personalize what I wrote; I wasn’t talking about YOU; I really don’t know YOU. And if I sought to offend/attack you (get personal), I would not have written my response in the manner I did.
I was merely relating to/and about many “Christians” I’ve experienced period. And as I started out to say, it’s not ALL beautiful and wonderful. Even so, some who are followers of Christ, are more like Jesus (IMV) than I could have ever imagined. The most religious people, don’t necessarily reflect what I think/believe is of Jesus.

This tells me that you don’t believe the Law is valid.

Better yet, I’ll say that I don’t take most things from the Bible in a LITERAL way. Reality that God places before us, is something I really don’t argue with people too much. Biblical interpretations, I take with a BLOCK of salt anymore.

First, you cannot u/stand the word ‘unrepentable’. Now, you’re showing that you don’t u/stand what ‘oppressive’ means ‘It's just plain oppressive being around those people … ‘. How can I oppress someone whom I have no authority over ? yikes, should I continue this with you …

I’m not here to be your teacher; I’m just sharing from my heart, just as many “Christians” do. I basically understood what you said in your post, but I really am going to limit trying to prove to you that I did. This (to me) isn’t worth arguing too much. Still, I just want to remind YOU and many others who might believe they have authority over others (for whatever reason/s), that there are both legal and spiritual limitations to the same. (Thank God.)

Ah … so this is what it’s all about. I can see why you hate the legal view.
I don’t hate it, I simply don’t agree with every Christian who attempts to wield it.

Simply put, some people are TERRIBLE (with religion) and shouldn’t abuse others as they do with THE BIBLE (or their interpretation of it).

Christ judges us through the Law.

Cool. I would trust Him with much more than than I would with one of His followers.

I judge no one.

I wouldn’t know that really; but OK.

God forbid.

I’m not even sure about that; I’ve seen “Christians” HURT a lot of people with their “religion” period. I think perhaps that God DOES allow such pain, for reasons I truly do not understand; not that He is wrong about anything, but that I REALLY don’t understand it (and likely never will, in this life).

But b/c I present the Law, YOU judge me as playing magistrate.
How nice of you …finger-pointing others …

Nope, not judging you period; please drop that notion. I may prick your sensibilities by what I say, but I’m not after you personally.
I’m not pretending to be “nice”; I am endeavoring to be “truthful”. I will argue with you, but always consider the value of being civil. I don’t intend to hurt anyone, but I realize that is possible; I try to be as gentle as possible but I won’t pretend to be something I’m not.

It is people like you whose voices have reached a critical mass that have caused laws to change, making a prophecy of Revelation come to pass. Scary.

You don’t know me; and I have no control over “prophecy” (itself), much less your interpretation of it.

An exegesis of the Law is meant to illumine the unlearned, dark mind to repent.

So you say; prove it… really. Are YOU (yourself) “illuminated”, or are you representing the “darkness”? Who really can know? I don’t necessarily trust what you say/interpret from the Bible, I merely consider what you have shared here; there is no PROMISE of agreement.

When you say christians are uncompassionate, you mean we must accept your sin but since we don’t it has affected your faith.

I only implied that SOME “Christians” are much less than reflective of the character of Jesus, while pretending to be otherwise. At no time did I say or intend to imply that of ALL Christians.

Additionally, I'm NOT saying that any "Christian" MUST accept what is "sin", to accept another person. I'm just talking about actually accepting the person period. Christians often try TOO HARD to change someone; it's God's providence, not theirs to make changes in a person. But some Christians are so stubborn in their CONTROLLING ATTUTUDES to see that is really the case. And it has set off many battles, that have practically nothing to do with BEING a "Christian". I do not have to know you personally, to know that even YOU have "sin" in your life; you, I and everyone else are flawed, imperfect, unfinished...etc. In fact, I don't expect to meet one single person who doesn't have something they probably don't want revealed (about who they really are, or what they've done). For the standard and typical reasons, they either DO NOT meet God's standards or their own personal standards. (And that is likely every person on the planet.)

So, if you came to me and I met you, I would NOT just because you had a "label" applied to yourself, trust that you were somehow flawless or better than any other person; even if that label were "Christian". I know better than to do that INTUITIVELY; I've been around churches and I been around many types of people all of of my life. Unfortunately for those who THINK that someone's association with things-Christian makes they more trustworthy or more "right", they are likely in for some very rude awakenings over the course of time.

I don't need to point out, that even the BEST people are flawed in some way. I don't need to point out that if an UNKIND person catches YOU (or anyone else in a fault, it is a terrible situation period. I do not have to overemphasize just how UNKIND and terribly many homosexual people (just for BEING homosexual) have been treated by MULTITUDES of people who bear the distinction of "Christian" (or other religions).

Yes, and significantly so, the CRUELTY and injustices many homosexuals have faced, DO affect the levels and type of "faith" those people might embrace. Have you noticed, that religiosity, ritual or even faith, do not FIX everything about every person? If grace isn't ACTIVE and PROFOUND, how could any of us ever face a PERFECT Creator God? How?

I could ask you to repent of things I see you doing wrong (if I could observe you 24/7 (with audio), but ultimately you would REJECT or REBEL at some point. And while some think that putting that EXTRA pressure on people who are suspected or confirmed "homosexuals" is a positive force for change, in reality they are only damaging or wounding people in profound ways.

If you don't understand what I'm pointing out, just consider telling ANY warm-blooded, normal, healthy HETEROSEXUAL MAN... that their desire (or perhaps lust) for women needs to be CONTROLLED. Now, that person (perhaps a "Christian") may certainly agree superficially (at first), but they WOULD NOT likely tolerate concerted, concentrated or excessive efforts to force a CHANGE in the way they are (systematic and fanatical attempts to alter their overall sense of human sexual identity). In fact, many would wonder if the person telling them to rein-it-in was gay or had some other problem.

Really, most guys just kind of "wink" at lust; even Christians; and some guys are proud/oud to let everyone know just how HORNY they are. For guys (especially), it's almost like a rite of passage. I've witnessed it likely hundreds of thousands of times. Some people can call it admiring "beauty" all they want; but it it usually guys admiring "BOOTY" all they want. I do not fault/judge them for that, and I take seriously the struggles any person may have with it. All too often, people don't think homosexual people struggle with similar things; that it is just as NATURAL for them to be "gay" as it is for someone else to be "straight"; they outright ignore the reality of that, and it's a MASSIVE problem for Christians who intend to assess the dynamics of a person who must deal with being a homosexual in this world.

I could surely go on, but I DO INDEED seek to emphasize, the reality that too many "Christians" talk about homosexuality as if they "really" understand what they are talking about. Seriously and frequently, what many Christians think/say about homosexual people, would be laughable if they would zoom-out a bit, and really look at what they are actually relating as "truth". And that is just plain hard to do, when you've been CONDITIONED to think a certain way. Again, not that anyone or any Christian must see homosexuality as "right", but that they understand well enough that they cannot pressume to exercise power OVER a homosexual person. I just don't see where God grants anyone that particular authority period.

Excuse me, faith is a personal relationship with Christ that has NOTHING to do with the relationship of other believers and yourself.

No need to be excused. I didn’t write anything TO/AT you; and BTW, I believe the SAME EXACT THING.

You toy with words to evoke compassion, you want people to accept sin, and the next thing is … you desolate them b/c of their acceptance of sin. This is so very typically, satan. The ignorant among us will fall for your ploy.

No, I’m not toying with anything really. “Christianity” does have problems that have caused me so much pain, that it IS painful to relate and have other Christians consider. While I believe Christ has something unimpeachable to offer this world, I don’t see that coming from everyone who CLAIMS to be OF Christ.

We are sinners too and we stand against the sin in us.

I know; we try but not absolutely so, and it’s obvious. Some people unfortunately project their problems onto others.

We repent.

Sometimes we can’t, don’t want to. Love is the ONLY thing (I know of) that can conquer that problem.

It takes tears, blood and Mt 18:9 describe what we do to stop the sin in us.

Are you saying Jesus suffered for us? If so, I tend to believe that.

You, however, evoke pity and then you desolate them who pity you, by changing laws so that future generations would come from a background where both parents are of the same gender.

I didn’t advocate for changing any laws, and certainly not in my last post. But while you are on the subject, I will tell you that I don’t think homosexuality is the threat to the sanctity of traditional marriage that many claim it is. Divorce, is something that many more (Christian) people need to discuss and tend to period.

You tell me if I should pity a handful of desolaters or save the rest of the human race.

Consider what God lays on YOUR heart and take it seriously; deal with it and don’t expect everyone else to see it YOUR way.

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

I have understood this, and heard various interpretations of it. What does your faith allow you to believe? Do you know what I have personally sacrificed for Christ? I’m not going to try to guess what you have sacrificed; I hope that God’s grace is with you. No one is perfect.

‘I'm not anti-Christian’ … don’t give me this crap.

Is there ANYTHING you’ve said in your posts, that I could have assailed directly? As I implied above, you can take or leave what I say. I’m not out to control you, or define what only God can show you through reality itself.

Your words are stout against God’s people.

That’s your opinion, and based upon your interpretation of what I said. All I say is that it has not been my intention to “offend” or “attack” you.

You try to evoke pity but truly trying to mask the ‘roaring lion’.

No, I’m not out for pity; I'm merely trying to encourage more people to be reasonably critical of those “beliefs” they could/would impose upon others. You speak with great authority, and I don’t see where any human being is necessarily “wrong” to question what you (or any other Christian might say).

Now telling us that we play ‘god’ … how dare you make such blasphemous statements.

Are you implying that SOME “Christians: do not “overstep” their actual measure of personal authority? Can you tell me that I haven’t seen certain “Christians” making a mockery of God’s love, mercy and grace, by hurting others in His name (and calling it “right”)? Prove to me I have NOT seen these things.

You cannot compare Jesus with humans.

Did I say that Jesus was LIKE you, me or any other human being? I (in fact) differentiated between His qualities and those of the many who claim to be his followers. I see the DIFFERENCES. I did NOT equate human beings with Jesus (though I believe He was fully-human), but making a real comparison between Him and the so-called and self-proclaimed “Christians” who reflect very little of what I think He was about overall.

See how illogical you are.

How “logical” is “faith”?! Hebrews chapter 11, doesn’t actually seem (that) “logical” to me; but somewhere within me (as a human being), I view it as being significant.

Are you done with your diatribe.

Skip my posts, if you must. Don’t worry about them. To you, they can be like dust, just as we shall all eventually become. I’m on the world turning with it, not turning the world itself.

You think the world must accept you as you are, sin and all.
Jesus does/did. Can you prove otherwise?

The above verse in red shows you how we, christians, deal with the sin in ourselves. We don’t cry and evoke pity from others. Nice ploy.

So, the verses you can quote or recite, are the limits/measure of your compassion for sinners? Are those verses all you need to be right with God? Do you know my heart? (Really?)

-Mel-