Forgiveness, a Christian calling card?

[achilles12604]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_ ... l_shooting

In years past, forgiveness was central to Christian lives. Lately, I am sensing much less forgiveness from the majority of Christains I know personally. They are becoming less forgiving in my opinion. However, as noted in this article and in other reports and interviews I have seen, the Amish are extreamly forgiving of a man that everyone else condemns, even after his actions hurt the Amish directly.

My questions are

1) Are Christian's becoming less forgiving as a group? Is there a trend happening here?

2) If yes, why? Why are some Christains becoming less forgiving while others are still amazing? What is the difference and what causes this?

[topaz]

I would agree with you. But I also agree with melikio. There is just as likely a chance that what you believe is wrong, as anyone else.

1-the Law is a perpetual covenant … means immutable.

2-if you don’t believe the Law, then you cannot believe in God either b/c He gave the Law through Moses. If you truly believe the Law is void, then I am sure you can commit adultery, kill your parents and do all the things that the Law forbid yet no repercussion. Doesn’t this prove that the Law rules.

By taking an authoritative stance … I have had personaly experience with that, and it is horrible.

Right. I see your point. If you’re going to cringe each time someone takes an authoritative stance, or feel oppressed, then I say, it’s your conscience that is getting to you … lol. We know that no one can force their beliefs on another. So if you feel horrible when someone presents the Law in a forceful way, it shows that God’s Word is alive and powerful. Otherwise, the normal reaction would be to retaliate and eyeball to eyeball sort of situation develops.

Many Christians say they are representing this "Law". … head might explode.

This scenario is comical but I know you’re serious.

1-who says Christ does not present His teachings with force ? In healing a demon-possessed from Legion, Jesus forcefully, with authority, COMMAND the demons to leave. Healing is part of spreading the gospel, btw.

2-melikio has unwittingly given us a good testimony to show the effect of sin upon our souls … it weakens us so that it appears that others are wolves … ie. stronger than us.

Dt 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

No, what is meant, is that it is possible for a person to accept another for Who They Are.

1-do you see an adulterer openly declaring his relationship with another’s spouse ? or a pedophile fighting for the rights of his sinful acts ?

2-Now, you’re telling me that society must accept a gay couple on equal terms as a normal couple eventhough the gay couple refuse to repent of their sin. Instead, they brazenly fight for the right to commit sin. If I don’t accept them, then I bear no compassion, no love ? what kind of perspective is this?

3-Isn’t it correct that sin must be repented of, then society will accept us irregardless of our past. Instead, the gays are pushing it down the throat of society to ACCEPT SIN.

4-Since this sin has been made legal, what right does a court of law has to convict murderers, perjurers, false witnesses, … ? It smacks of double standards.

Is it not a mission of Christianity to "save" others?

1-the mission of christians is to spread the gospel. This means explain the Law, the teachings, etc. I see christians in gay threads do this passionately … on deaf gay ears.

2-salvation is the sole prerogative of Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour of mankind. Christians are not the Messiah. They CANNOT ‘save’ anyone.

How are these "sinners" supposed to learn what Christianity is … offering soap and a shower.

I’ve seen gay threads everywhere. Are they teachable ? or do they give excuses that their condition is genetic. Do you really believe that gays have no conscience that it is an act of sin ? If so, why are they arguing day and night over it ? Truth is, conscience pricks. They know it is wrong. Some want to repent but don’t know how. Some clearly don’t want to repent. They come to christian gatherings online and force their beliefs down our throats. They vent their frustrations on the christian community as if we made them gay. They hate us for upholding the Law as melikio has shown.

Yes, we provide soap + shower but unfortunately, few takers. They would rather stink.

So don’t tell me to accept people as they are when they refuse to repent. I am a sinner myself, so is everyone. The criteria is – repent of sin. No repentance, no acceptance. No compromise on this.

Why not compare Jesus with humans? I thought he was human?

Yes, He was human and God. What kind of human is this. He is God the Son who had to take human form to execute God’s master plan of salvation by blood. No blood, no salvation.

You will find that "sinners" are just as likely as Christians to be nice people … Become open, lie naked and exposed for the world to see (I don't mean physically), and others will be attracted to your love.

1-this is a matter of life and death, not about being ‘nice’. Life means stop sin. Death means go on in sin. God it is who put up the parameters.

2-you talk as if I don’t u/stand what it is to be weak, to be tempted, and to sin. There is no moral highground in my mind since we are all alike, ie. sinners.

3-love means to teach them the TRUTH that will set them free. Hate means to accept them when they refuse to repent – biblical. Love is exposing what sin is so that repentance takes place. When they repent, God accept them. This is the parameter. This is what they refuse to accept – repentance.

4-Since you love them so much, ask them why they refuse to repent. Why argue that it isn’t sin or it is genetic or … w/ever. Seems to me, the onus is on them to repent.

[topaz]

Then tell me, why can't God seem to make his presence known so we know we are in fact defying something. Most Christians I know here are so full of their own self righteousness that to question anything is paramount to being unteachable and unrepentable. It is statements like this that keeps me in a consistent state of confusion. You sit to judge me, you have no right to judge me. You sit to tell me of Gods codemnation of me, when you have not spoken to God to know this. You persist in your "seek and you will find" then doubt my honesty in my search when I fail to find. Tell me, when did Christians stop preaching love and start passing judgement? When did they stop turning the other cheek and start persecuting those who dare to question them or the bible?

Right … so I am judging you now ? I am talking from my own experience. You don’t tend to discuss or debate but to quarrel, to be invective. Perhaps you don’t know how to be nice. You are frustrated with your life. Take it out on yourself ! I owe you nothing.

Whoa, did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed? I am sorry if you took my remarks as a personal attack. Honestly, they weren't meant to be. I never meant for any of those examples to be directed towards you. I don't know you well enough to even consider judging you. Those were general characteristics they I see a lot of in the Christians I know in this area only. Unless I know you and you live in the panhandle of florida, these were in no way directed towards you. I have never had issues with your posts. Most have been very enlightening, though I recall we have disagreed on some. But never disrespectfully. I am very sorry if I offended you. I was only making reference to my personal experiences here. You are right, you owe me nothing. But I still apologize.

Lol … thank you for apologizing. I apologize too. I am sorry I misunderstood you. Please forgive me.

[McCulloch]

Now, you’re telling me that society must accept a gay couple on equal terms as a normal couple even though the gay couple refuse to repent of their sin. Instead, they brazenly fight for the right to commit sin. If I don’t accept them, then I bear no compassion, no love ? what kind of perspective is this?

Yes. Just as I have the right to eat bacon, which is defined as a sin by Islam. I have the right to work on Saturday, which is defined as a sin by some religions and I have the right to work on Sunday which is defined as a sin by other religions.

Isn’t it correct that sin must be repented of, then society will accept us irregardless of our past. Instead, the gays are pushing it down the throat of society to ACCEPT SIN.

No. Gays and other human rights advocates, are pushing the idea that legal prohibitions and discrimination based solely on religion are not acceptable.

Since this sin has been made legal, what right does a court of law has to convict murderers, perjurers, false witnesses, … ? It smacks of double standards.

The laws of your country (assuming the USA) were not made to uphold the religious idea of sin. The laws were established to protect rights and to facilitate a well ordered society. There is no double standard in the secular state not enforcing by law the religious precepts of a specific brand of theist.

[melikio]

1-the Law is a perpetual covenant … means immutable.

By "faith" you believe this; that does not eliminate questions in the hearts and minds of other people. It is just one reason why kindness and gentleness are more appropriate in dealing with issues of religion and faith.

2-if you don’t believe the Law, then you cannot believe in God either b/c He gave the Law through Moses. If you truly believe the Law is void, then I am sure you can commit adultery, kill your parents and do all the things that the Law forbid yet no repercussion. Doesn’t this prove that the Law rules.

Again, you accept this BY FAITH; you are not in any position to cause anyone and everyone to believe this; no matter how HARD you think you need to PUSH it.

If you’re going to cringe each time someone takes an authoritative stance, or feel oppressed, then I say, it’s your conscience that is getting to you … lol.

That's just YOUR perspective of what could ultimately be a more complete understanding of what you are referring to. You have to understand, that YOUR faith allows you to accept certain things as true/untrue.

We know that no one can force their beliefs on another.

Not ALL Christians or religious (even some secular) people think and live accordingly. They WILL cause problem by attempting to FORCE what they believe, in any way they see fit.

So if you feel horrible when someone presents the Law in a forceful way, it shows that God’s Word is alive and powerful.

Or perhaps it just proves that one has encountered a terrible, inconsiderate coersive person? (Some "Christians" are just that.)

Otherwise, the normal reaction would be to retaliate and eyeball to eyeball sort of situation develops.

Not necessarily. Even so, why do you think this is so?

1-who says Christ does not present His teachings with force ? In healing a demon-possessed from Legion, Jesus forcefully, with authority, COMMAND the demons to leave. Healing is part of spreading the gospel, btw.

I don't see where "Jesus" is anything like most Christians who deal with homosexual people. And I really don't think Jesus approves of the way most Christians think of and treat homosexuals. (That's like another whole thread topic that was already covered.)

2-melikio has unwittingly given us a good testimony to show the effect of sin upon our souls … it weakens us so that it appears that others are wolves … ie. stronger than us.

No, you are mistaken. I know what I say is MULTI-EDGED. I intend to use it surgically, not as the MORAL A-BOMBS many Christians launch onto homosexual people. (They typically cannot handle the "fallout".)

1-do you see an adulterer openly declaring his relationship with another’s spouse ? or a pedophile fighting for the rights of his sinful acts ?

How many homosexual people do you think are silent about who/what they are? You are likely sitting, working and congregating with more of them than you would realize. Not all homosexual people are OUT and OVER-THE-TOP about their sexual-orientation.

2-Now, you’re telling me that society must accept a gay couple on equal terms as a normal couple eventhough the gay couple refuse to repent of their sin. Instead, they brazenly fight for the right to commit sin. If I don’t accept them, then I bear no compassion, no love ? what kind of perspective is this?

Maybe we shouldn't call it "marriage"; but you and many others need to understand that the moral views of certain "Christians" or others who can't accept homosexuality, should not be THE moral standard held over homosexuals in the hostile and oppressive fashion it too often is.

3-Isn’t it correct that sin must be repented of, then society will accept us irregardless of our past. Instead, the gays are pushing it down the throat of society to ACCEPT SIN.

What sins are you talking about?! Rape, child-molestation, murder, spouse abuse, lying, stealing? Some issues are between God and the individual; and I think one's non-criminal (no physical victim, no forcible or unconsented actions ...etc.) sexual actions are in that category.

4-Since this sin has been made legal, what right does a court of law has to convict murderers, perjurers, false witnesses, … ? It smacks of double standards.

Geez!! Do we HAVE to go back to how many and how long certain LAWS have been thrown out or unobserved over time? I don't know one single person who lives exactly like the people in biblical times; much less do they have the exact same views (perspectives) as the people of ancient times.

1-the mission of christians is to spread the gospel. This means explain the Law, the teachings, etc. I see christians in gay threads do this passionately … on deaf gay ears.

Whatever you've seen, it still remains TRUE, that you nor anyone else has a moral right to FORCE or COMPEL a homosexual person to flip themselves inside-out (according to your will or the will of your God). If it is going to happen, let GOD do it; keep your hand out of other people's hearts, there's more going on in there than you can imagine or understand.

2-salvation is the sole prerogative of Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour of mankind. Christians are not the Messiah. They CANNOT ‘save’ anyone.

THey TOO OFTEN TRY to PUSH people to Jesus or "religion". Something is WRONG with that period.

I’ve seen gay threads everywhere.

There are many of them, but they are relatively few and certainly not "everywhere". It might be more helpful to note, the topics you've seen, because I don't know what you really mean by "gay threads".

Are they teachable ? or do they give excuses that their condition is genetic.

Teachable? Yes, there is likely someone who can/will learn from discussions in various fora. If you think that "teachable" means they must accept the religion you hand them, then you are likely fantasizing about a place that really doesn't exist (it is a concept only, not reality).

Do you really believe that gays have no conscience that it is an act of sin ?

Yep, they do often see/realize what they do is natural, loving... even if it is not as widely accepted as the things heterosexuals do.

If so, why are they arguing day and night over it ?

There are many reasons; likely more than the few you would consider or deem valid.

Truth is, conscience pricks.

Nope, you are mistaken in a major way. You indicate that you don't understand what you are talking about. YOu have your religious view of what is sin or isn't sin, but I'm here to share that you might want to reconsider this "truth" you believe you've shared above.

They know it is wrong.

They know they have been TOLD it's wrong. But that doesn't mean they must accept what they've been told. Some "Christians" want them to believe that so much, that they do the equivalent of pushing an animal's face into its food (forcing it to eat).

Some want to repent but don’t know how.

DO you realize just HOW MUCH some "Christians" need to "repent" of what they actually do to homosexual people? DO you think that Jesus would come down with BLANKET approval of all that is done to homosexual people in His name? (Think about that.)

Some clearly don’t want to repent.

That may be so; even so, what do you think YOU should do about it (if anything)?

They come to christian gatherings online and force their beliefs down our throats.

You are not relating truth. And I've literally experienced countless "Christians" laying down more than a few "caring" words upon homosexual people in general. If some people could justify forcing the Bible and their interpretations of it on people, they would certainly do so.

They vent their frustrations on the christian community as if we made them gay.

"They" are your fellow human beings, just as I realize the many anti-gay "Christians" are my brothers/sisters. And you are terribly misted, if you think gay people shouldn't "vent" in some way. Afterall, and while you may not like to consider it, they ARE OFTEN MISTREATED by the very people who claim to bring them "freedom".

They hate us for upholding the Law as melikio has shown.

What is with this us/them attitude? We are closer to you than you seem to want to believe; don't fool yourself. Like it or not, some "sinners" happen to be the kind of sinners we don't want to think/imagine they are. Don't freak out, but remember that LOVE means more than accepting those who agree to CONFORM to your own select beliefs.

Yes, we provide soap + shower but unfortunately, few takers. They would rather stink.

Yep. Sometimes only God/fate can make the point to a person; we all need to accept that period.

So don’t tell me to accept people as they are when they refuse to repent.

You'd do well to bring the same LOVE and GRACE to others as Jesus did. That would be something inspirational to strive for, and miraculous to achieve. It's easy to put up a wall of rejection to any and every person who is either different or doesn't agree with that we do. Really, relaly easy, and seemingly very "safe". That doesn't take much "faith" really (IMV).

I am a sinner myself, so is everyone.

We know.

The criteria is – repent of sin. No repentance, no acceptance. No compromise on this.

That is in YOUR BOOK, and in the way you perceive it (or have been taught). You cannot PUSH this into the hearts and minds of everyone. YOU don't have to compromise, but you should not demand the same of other people; it's not REALISTIC. By YOUR faith, you embrace what you believe is real; others clearly will not see it YOUR WAY. This really doesn't have to be argued too much, but in a world where the allure of FORCE and ruthlessness seems attractive to many, some go the next step toward controlling others in all of this.

Yes, He was human and God. What kind of human is this. He is God the Son who had to take human form to execute God’s master plan of salvation by blood. No blood, no salvation.

If I cannot relate to "Jesus" (the human), then I have little that I understand at all. Who can actually fathom "God" or the Creator of all that is? Honestly, that is like "mist" to me. At least with Jesus, I see an example of what God could be like; and I can strive to embrace the examples He set for all mankind. God's master plan, is so far outside of my ability to fathom I can sense it intuitively. Thank God, I gave up the futitily of trying to understand and figure that out.

Jesus is the only thread by which some "believers" retain their faith. And a strong thread it is. So, when one is down to the bare-bones and hanging by a thread, it's natural/intuitive to see what's really worthwhile or essential about "Christianity" or any relgion. (People ADD a LOT of stuff that just doesn't mean all that much to many.) Still, that doesn't prevent any seeker from being affected by someone coming up and trying to rock their world. Some "Christians" (and other religious people) are just bullies and they can't even realize they are. And some who think they are on top of the heap, have as many problems in reality as the most abject UN-believer. I've found this to be true so many times in life, I don't even question it anymore.

That "Christian" LABEL is used a lot, but a LABEL is not necessarily representative of the person wearing it. The same goes for those who SAY all the "right" or "Christian" things, and the essence of Jesus Christ is nowhere near them. And a LOT (too many) "Christians" are like that; basically frightened, angry and fearful people who tend to cause a lot of trouble for others (in the name of their God/religion). So few realize (or accept) that there is a way the message of Jesus can be promoted, without being PUSHY and DIFFICULT. Sometimes, I get the impression that people don't understand the difference between FOLLOWING Jesus, and PRETENDING TO BE Jesus.

You will find that "sinners" are just as likely as Christians to be nice people … Become open, lie naked and exposed for the world to see (I don't mean physically), and others will be attracted to your love.

"Sinners" ARE "Christians". How about PEOPLE are HUMAN. Jesus didn't come to earth as a Zebra (for good reasons).

1-this is a matter of life and death, not about being ‘nice’. Life means stop sin. Death means go on in sin. God it is who put up the parameters.

Still, any person reaching out and accepting God's help, is between them and God; not about how any given "Christian" can apply influence or pressures to steer them to where they want them to go.

2-you talk as if I don’t u/stand what it is to be weak, to be tempted, and to sin. There is no moral highground in my mind since we are all alike, ie. sinners.

If more "Christians" (and other human beings) could make the above more "foundational" a lot more issues would be resolved between us.

3-love means to teach them the TRUTH that will set them free. Hate means to accept them when they refuse to repent – biblical. Love is exposing what sin is so that repentance takes place. When they repent, God accept them. This is the parameter. This is what they refuse to accept – repentance.

Love is described as many things; and I'm certain God communicates it effectively to each person, even beyond the "nutshell" you yourself understand as described above.

4-Since you love them so much, ask them why they refuse to repent. Why argue that it isn’t sin or it is genetic or … w/ever. Seems to me, the onus is on them to repent.

Why not just pray for them, and learn to accept them as equals, when it's NOT in your power to CHANGE them or FORCE them to "repent" (or conform to some other thing).

Don't you have SINS of your own to tend to? (I bet you do; because we ALL do.)

-Mel-

[topaz]

Hello McC,

Now, you’re telling me that society must accept a gay couple on equal terms as a normal couple even though the gay couple refuse to repent of their sin. Instead, they brazenly fight for the right to commit sin. If I don’t accept them, then I bear no compassion, no love ? what kind of perspective is this?

Yes. Just as I have the right to eat bacon, which is defined as a sin by Islam. I have the right to work on Saturday, which is defined as a sin by some religions and I have the right to work on Sunday which is defined as a sin by other religions.

Fine. You have your rights. So do I. Yippee …

Isn’t it correct that sin must be repented of, then society will accept us irregardless of our past. Instead, the gays are pushing it down the throat of society to ACCEPT SIN.

No. Gays and other human rights advocates, are pushing the idea that legal prohibitions and discrimination based solely on religion are not acceptable.

Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The above verse tells me that God would not find your reasoning acceptable.

Since this sin has been made legal, what right does a court of law has to convict murderers, perjurers, false witnesses, … ? It smacks of double standards.

The laws of your country (assuming the USA) were not made to uphold the religious idea of sin. The laws were established to protect rights and to facilitate a well ordered society. There is no double standard in the secular state not enforcing by law the religious precepts of a specific brand of theist.

[/quote]

Ge 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

[McCulloch]

I think that these ideas have gone beyond the topic of this thread. Let's pursue them in Should human laws be modeled after God's law?.