1 Col 3:17

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Wootah
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1 Col 3:17

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Post by Wootah »

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
JWs and friends:

Why would I thank God through a not God being?

Why would all my words and deeds be in the name of a not God being?

When did the Shema get dropped? If I thought Jesus was not God I would consider the NT blasphemy of the worst kind.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

Post #41

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:40 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:26 pm ...but if it is that the resurrected Christ is presently equal in power and position to The Father, then please provide the reference.
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:49 am
... My personal favorites are all the verses/passages that speak of Christ after His ascension being seated at the right hand of God (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:69, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 8:1...).


Okay we tre looking for two elements in the references provided: equal in power and equality in position:

DO PASSAGES THAT SPEAK OF JESUS ENTHRONED AT THE FATHERS " RIGHT HAND" SUGGEST EQUALITY?
MATTHEW 26:64 (also see Mark 14:62, Luke 22:69, Colossians 3:1)

Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man+ sitting at the right hand of power+ and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


In Biblical usage, the “right hand” often stands for a position of favor not EQUALITY. Note what Jesus does during his Judgement of the nations ...
MATTHEW 25:33

And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Further the bible indicates the resurrected Jesus is placed in that position by his Father. Thus the position is not intrinsic as it would be for Almighty God but a privilege bestowed on the resurrected Christ by a higher authority.

EPHESIANS 1: 20, 22, 24
... Christ when he [the Father] raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, ... and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation,+ 23 which is his body,+ the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.
1 PETER 3:22

He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.

ACTS 5:31

God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand.
Moreover from this position the resurrected Christ is referred to as "a minister" and likened to the High Priest whose fonction was to lead the people in worship of YHWH not to be worshipped as Almighty Gods equal.
HEBREWS 8:1, 2

Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this,+ and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,+ 2 a minister* of the holy place+ and of the true tent, which Jehovah* set up, and not man.

*Or "public servant"
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:16 am
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:04 am Christ submits to God the Father, that submission doesn’t make him inferior to his Father in terms of deity.
Is the individual that submits equal in authority to that to which he submits?

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The gospel is not simply a message of personal salvation or a declaration related to spiritual things. It is both of those, but it is much more. The gospel also asserts that God has seated Christ “at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come” (Eph. 1:20–21). The Son of God has possessed such authority from all eternity according to His divine nature. In the incarnation, the Son of God took on a human nature and submitted to the Father’s authority as a man while possessing authority fully equal to the Father’s as God. By fulfilling His mission, the incarnate Son received authority to rule and reign over all creation. In His humanity as well as in His deity, the God-man is King over all He has made. He is Lord over all the rulers of the earth.

Grace and peace to you, JW>

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

Post #42

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:18 am ... the Son of God took on a human nature and submitted to the Father’s authority as a man while possessing authority fully equal to the Father’s as God.
How could Jesus, possess authority fully equal to the Father’s while explaining “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me". If Almighty God has absolute authority as the supreme ruler of the universe, and Jesus possed authority fully equal to that, how could Jesus at any moment in time be given more?



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

Post #43

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:29 am
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:18 am ... the Son of God took on a human nature and submitted to the Father’s authority as a man while possessing authority fully equal to the Father’s as God.
How could Jesus, possess authority fully equal to the Father’s while explaining “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me". If Almighty God has absolute authority as the supreme ruler of the universe, and Jesus possessed authority fully equal to that, how could Jesus at any moment in time be given more?
Well He wasn't "given more," as if to say at some point in the past He had less than He has now (or up to that point), or that He had none. I'm not even sure how you would come up with such a question, unless you're trying to put words in my mouth, which is certainly how it seems... At any rate, Paul does say -- in several letters and in different ways, but here drawing from Colossians 1 -- that Christ is the image of the invisible God, that by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, that all things were created through him and for him, and that He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together, and that in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. The Father and Jesus were one for all eternity, and will be for all eternity.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

Post #44

Post by Eloi »

Some people are so caught up in their own imaginations that they can't figure out what's in reality.

When Scripture says that Jesus was given some things, authority, power, position, etc., that OBVIOUSLY means that he did not have it before they were given to him. You just have to be able to reason in what Scripture says at a basic level of understanding ... you don't have to be a scientist to understand it.

Heb. 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

A person has to have a lot of desire to argue and stubborn, to even twist the normal meaning of the words in order not to have to accept what the Bible says. People who want to help others to reason should not waste time with people who are like that ... They will never accept anything no matter how clear it is.

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

Post #45

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:27 pm Some people are so caught up in their own imaginations that they can't figure out what's in reality.
I agree. And some people are so caught up by what others have dreamed up in their own imaginations that they can't see reality for what it is, which is warned about in Scripture; Paul said that many would not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they would accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and woul turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:27 pm When Scripture says that Jesus was given some things, authority, power, position, etc., that OBVIOUSLY means that he did not have it before they were given to him.
As a human, born of Mary, this is true. But as you know, as God, He emptied Himself of His deity -- laid it aside (before His incarnation) for man's sake, and during His time on earth did not exploit it or use it in any way -- but never at any time ceased to possess it, as John makes clear throughout his gospel and in particular as Jesus Himself said in John 17 and Paul says in all his letters in various, Philippians 2 and Colossians 1-3 in particular.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:27 pm You just have to be able to reason in what Scripture says at a basic level of understanding ... you don't have to be a scientist to understand it.
Agreed.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:27 pm A person has to have a lot of desire to argue and stubborn, to even twist the normal meaning of the words in order not to have to accept what the Bible says.
Agreed.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:27 pm People who want to help others to reason should not waste time with people who are like that ... They will never accept anything no matter how clear it is.
Ah, I disagree. God changes hearts, and He can use anybody and/or anything to do that. God makes the blind to see, the ears of the deaf to be unstopped, the lame to leap like a deer, and the mute tongue to sing for joy. So we cannot really know whether they will ever really hear or not. But I do agree that many have wandered away into vain discussion without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions (1 Timothy 1:6-7).

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

Post #46

Post by Eloi »

I think is better if you calm down. You are not here to battle other people ... and when I read your posts I feel like you are always angry and trying to force others to accept your way of thinking. I think that if you think of this forum as for the exchange of information and rational debate of ideas, it will help you learn how to talk to others without believing that you are at the lectern of a church giving a sermon.

I don't have much to talk to you in that uncomfortable situation that you imagine as if it were real, that you are the teacher of the forum participants and that the others are your learners ... I am not here to listen to sermons nor do I think this forum is for that, so have a great day.

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Re: 1 Col 3:17

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Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:34 pm I think is better if you calm down. You are not here to battle other people...
LOL!!! I have been thinking for the last... well, fairly good while... about how militant Jehovah's Witness's are. Me? Angry? No, just astonished at... well, no need to say anything further than that.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:34 pm ... and when I read your posts I feel like you are always angry and trying to force others to accept your way of thinking.
I have thought the exact same of you, onewithhim, 2timothy316... even JW, but him only fairly recently really.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:34 pm I think that if you think of this forum as for the exchange of information and rational debate of ideas, it will help you learn how to talk to others without believing that you are at the lectern of a church giving a sermon.
Or at least as at the lectern of a professor at a seminary. Yes, right back at you, Eloi.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:34 pm I don't have much to talk to you in that uncomfortable situation that you imagine as if it were real, that you are the teacher of the forum participants and that the others are your learners ... I am not here to listen to sermons nor do I think this forum is for that...
You can certainly do as you please, Eloi. As for me, as I have said, my job is to proclaim the truth, and I will never cease from that charge and calling.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:34 pm ...so have a great day.
This wish for me seems empty and void of sincerity. I mean, much the same to you, but I think I'm the only one here who truly means it. Grace and peace to you.

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