Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Eloi
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Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

When Jehovah formed the nation of Israel, he organized it. He gave them laws, judges, prophets, priests, etc. He took them to a territory and eventually made them a nation with a land of their own. He protected them as long as they were faithful, but in the end he rejected them as His chosen people.

Later, when the followers of Christ became an international community, he organized them. The apostles and elders in Jerusalem constituted its Governing Body. Congregations were formed in different places where it was preached, and the holy spirit appointed overseers among them, who always followed the general instructions of the Governing Body as we can see in Acts 15 ... until the apostasy plunged Christians into darkness.

The Bible prophesied that in the time of the end a new people would arise bearing the name of Jehovah (Is. 2:2-4). Does such a people already exist? Should we expect them to be organized like the Israelites and first century Christians?

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 pm But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.
Mat. 23:4-12
Biblically, we are all (man or women or child) equal in the eyes of God. That does not however mean we all have the same role in God's organisation.

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #12

Post by Eloi »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:45 am
1213 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 pm But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.
Mat. 23:4-12
Biblically, we are all (man or women or child) equal in the eyes of God. That does not however mean we all have the same role in God's organisation.

JW
Exactly.

It is the way the first century Christian congregation functioned, and they set the tone for how the Christian congregation, Jehovah's people, would function when they were finally delivered from exile in that "Babylonian" darkness in which they were plunged at the beginning of the second century after the death of the apostle John.

1 Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services; abilities to direct; different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? 30 Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all are interpreters, are they? 31 But keep striving for the greater gifts. And yet I will show you a surpassing way.

Even if some of these functions are not performed in the modern people of God in the manner of the first century, there are still appointments of overseers and different functions. In fact, if those positions of oversight and functions did not exist, the people of the true God would be unrecognizable among the religious mass of this world, and as I said in a previous post, some Christian activities that identify true Christians and that require guidance, direction, organization, etc., could not be carried out.

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #13

Post by Eloi »

The people of God has historically been organized. God's people today should be able to be just as well, and it is.

The world community that has a true connection to the God of heaven is supposed to be different from any other religious community, and the Scriptures clarify each and every one of those special characteristics that they must have.

If any person is looking for a perfect community, he will never find it, because God's people are now made up of imperfect people. If paradise were livable now, then it would not be a promise for the future.

Rom. 8:24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:15 am ...
Later, when the followers of Christ became an international community, he organized them. ...
When there is one leader, it is an organization. And for disciples of Jesus the organization should be flat, God, Jesus and disciples of Jesus.


And (unless you are going to disregard the biblical model) elders, overseer, teachers, congregations, travelling representatives, central body of decision makers, organised preaching champaign, church funds, and many the other features associated with an organised religion.




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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #15

Post by Eloi »

When Scripture speaks of God drawing and leading his people through Christ, he compares the people he draws to sheep. The sheep allow themselves to be guided; not like goats, who pull the rope so as not to go where they are led.

Many times people do not want to be part of an organized community, because they do not want anyone to advise or teach them, because they are not like sheep. This era is one of independence. The Bible says that men in the last days would be "not open to any agreement" and "having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power".

2 Tim. 3:1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

When people isolate themselves to do what they determine for themselves, or pretend that God is telling them what to do (because he has his own way of "interpreting" the Scriptures), they are actually seeking their own complacency:

Pro. 18:1 Whoever isolates himself pursues his own selfish desires; He rejects all practical wisdom.

That person does not allow himself to be guided as he should, by an organized direction, nor does he really praise God with his people; he just imagine a relationship with an imaginary "people of God" to which he also belong in an imaginary way. They even think that they have the spirit of God guiding them somehow. They deceive themselves.

Luke 13:23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:09 pm ...elders, overseer, teachers, congregations, travelling representatives, central body of decision makers, organised preaching champaign, church funds, and many the other features associated with an organised religion...
But I don't think those are necessary, nor commanded by the Bible or God. I don't think they are bad, but the problem with those is, they can become tempting for greedy and power-hungry people that then can corrupt the organization. That is why I think it would be better that there are just disciples of Jesus, who freely follow Jesus.

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:01 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:09 pm ...elders, overseer, teachers, congregations, travelling representatives, central body of decision makers, organised preaching champaign, church funds, and many the other features associated with an organised religion...
But I don't think those are necessary, nor commanded by the Bible or God. ... That is why I think it would be better that there are just disciples of Jesus, who freely follow Jesus.
The question then is does God agree with you?

It comes down to the fundamental question : Should modern days Christian groups pattern themselves as closely as possible to the first century Apostolic model? Our position is that the Christian Greek scriptures serve as a template by which future generations could be enabled to identify the true Chrsitan church amongst the thousands of denominations and be gathered to it.
Having established scripturally that there would *be* a modern day earthly part of God's organisation, finding it would be impossible unless scripture provides a picture of what we are looking for.

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #18

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:30 pm When Scripture speaks of God drawing and leading his people through Christ, he compares the people he draws to sheep. The sheep allow themselves to be guided; not like goats, who pull the rope so as not to go where they are led.

Many times people do not want to be part of an organized community, because they do not want anyone to advise or teach them, because they are not like sheep. This era is one of independence. The Bible says that men in the last days would be "not open to any agreement" and "having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power".

2 Tim. 3:1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

When people isolate themselves to do what they determine for themselves, or pretend that God is telling them what to do (because he has his own way of "interpreting" the Scriptures), they are actually seeking their own complacency:

Pro. 18:1 Whoever isolates himself pursues his own selfish desires; He rejects all practical wisdom.

That person does not allow himself to be guided as he should, by an organized direction, nor does he really praise God with his people; he just imagine a relationship with an imaginary "people of God" to which he also belong in an imaginary way. They even think that they have the spirit of God guiding them somehow. They deceive themselves.

Luke 13:23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’
It is the "fat shepherds" who will be fed judgment (Ezekiel 34:16) and be "destroyed". Those would be the leaders, who do not feed or heal the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-5). This happening at the end of the age when the "Lord God" will judge between the sheep (Ezekiel 34:20) & (Matthew 25:31-33), and "set over them one shepherd, My servant David" (Ezekiel 34:23), so "that they may live securely".

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