Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Eloi
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Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Post by Eloi »

When Jehovah formed the nation of Israel, he organized it. He gave them laws, judges, prophets, priests, etc. He took them to a territory and eventually made them a nation with a land of their own. He protected them as long as they were faithful, but in the end he rejected them as His chosen people.

Later, when the followers of Christ became an international community, he organized them. The apostles and elders in Jerusalem constituted its Governing Body. Congregations were formed in different places where it was preached, and the holy spirit appointed overseers among them, who always followed the general instructions of the Governing Body as we can see in Acts 15 ... until the apostasy plunged Christians into darkness.

The Bible prophesied that in the time of the end a new people would arise bearing the name of Jehovah (Is. 2:2-4). Does such a people already exist? Should we expect them to be organized like the Israelites and first century Christians?

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:15 am Should we expect them to be organized like the Israelites and first century Christians?
Yes.

In Ezekiel 11:19 God promises for His people that walk in His paths that they would be unified, "And I will give them a unified heart, and I will put a new spirit in them; and I will remove the heart of stone from their bodies and give them a heart of flesh."

In John 17:11, 20-23 Jesus prays that his disciples to be perfected into one by being in union with both Christ and Jehovah. Not only one with them be in union with each other just as Jehovah an Jesus are as union with each other. Jehovah and Jesus are not at odds with each other. Jesus doesn't believe something different from Jehovah. Jesus isn't on one side of heaven doing his own thing while Jehovah is doing something else. They have a common goal and they both work toward it. They also have love for each other and this would be THE identifying mark of those in union with Christ Jesus.

"By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35) Note love among 'yourselves' plural, not yourself. Which means we would be showing love to fellow disciples. How can a person be identified as a disciple of Christ if they have no fellow disciples to show love too?

Who is a disciple? "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - John 8:31,32. Remaining in Jesus' word is truth. There are not several truths in the way of one's own personal truth. In John 8:32 we see the Greek words tēn alētheian which means that alētheian is preceded by the definite article tēn. Meaning THE truth which means there is only one truth Jesus is talking about. A million individuals can't have different 'truths' and be following 'the truth'.

Today, are there supposed to be people to take the lead like the priest under the Mosaic Law? Jesus said to Peter to "feed my little sheep", making Peter a shepherd. (John 21:15-17) Peter was not the only shepherd because later Peter told other shepherds of the congregations, "Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the sufferings of the Christ and a sharer of the glory that is to be revealed, I make this appeal to the elders among you: Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly." - 1 Peter 5:1,2. There is no reason for Peter tell an 'elder' anything if they are not a shepherd of people.

With even just this little bit of Bible evidence (which there is so much more) it is clear that not only did Jehovah God say His people would be organized but we see that they were organized, even after Jesus returned to Heaven. I think the smallest congregation Jehovah ever had was Noah and his family. Even they were organized. Unless one would like to count A&E before their rebellion. Even then, Adam was head over Eve, so still organized with only two people.

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Post by 1213 »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:15 am ...
Later, when the followers of Christ became an international community, he organized them. ...
When there is one leader, it is an organization. And for disciples of Jesus the organization should be flat, God, Jesus and disciples of Jesus.

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Post by Eloi »

1213 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 pm When there is one leader, it is an organization. And for disciples of Jesus the organization should be flat, God, Jesus and disciples of Jesus. (Mat. 23:4-12)
So, you think real Christians go by themselves, in a disorganized way, each one doing what he understands as correct and each one interpreting what he reads as he sees fit. I think the opposite of organization is disorganization, and what you suggest seems to be that and nothing else.

And YES, the Christian congregation has a Leader, Jesus Christ, and servants appointed by holy spirit to take the lead among their brothers. It seems comfortable for "independent Christians" to be isolated so that they can believe and do what they see fit ... but never did a people serving God function that way. Precisely when people disobeyed those Jehovah appointed as spiritual leaders, the consequences were disastrous.

What mandatory Christian activities would be impossible if God's people were not organized?

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

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Post by PinSeeker »

The "organization" is invisible, at present (although certainly not invisible in the sense that we can't see its "members," but that we don't know for certain who all the "members" are or will be). And this "organization's" Head is no mere man... and is not here... yet. :) But He's coming. :) Well, He's coming back. :D

Yes, God is certainly very organized. But what may seem very disorganized and even chaotic to man is... well, not so with God. He is certainly in control. :) He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #6

Post by Eloi »

So: What mandatory Christian activities would be impossible if God's people were not organized?
I can think on this one:

Matt. 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

... and this one:

Heb. 10:24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.

Why would the worldwide preaching of the good news of the Kingdom (Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8) and meetings between brothers be impossible if God's people were not ORGANIZED?

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #7

Post by 1213 »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:10 pm So, you think real Christians go by themselves, in a disorganized way, each one doing what he understands as correct and each one interpreting what he reads as he sees fit. I think the opposite of organization is disorganization, and what you suggest seems to be that and nothing else. ...
I don’t say Christians go by themselves, they go by God and Jesus, if they truly are disciples of Jesus. I think it means, they remain in what Jesus told and don’t replace word of Jesus with their own interpretations and doctrines of men.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #8

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to 1213 in post #7]
Ok, I understand, and in what you say I agree with you, but I think we are talking about different things.
A person does not make a community, and of the people of God of the biblical prophecies for this time I am speaking.

I spoke of Isa. 2: 2-4 before ... meditate on that prophecy. But I would like to add another one that may help you understand the issue at hand here:

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

That prophecy was written about 4 centuries before Jesus was born. The Jews were back in Jerusalem and Jehovah's temple was already rebuilt. That prophecy DOES NOT SPEAK about the Jews, but about another people that would be formed in the future of that moment. Do you think that this "special property" of Jehovah is constituted by people isolated from each other?

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #9

Post by Eloi »

When Christians in the first century realized that God was drawing non-Jews into the Christian community, they accepted them as part of their own community, there was no further separation between one and the other.

Acts 15:12 At that the entire group became silent, and they began to listen to Barʹna·bas and Paul relate the many signs and wonders that God had done through them among the nations. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God ...

Did you notice the prophecy that they quoted and how it refers to the entire community of God's servants as a whole?

Amos 9:11 ‘In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen,
I will repair the breaches,
And I will restore its ruins;
I will rebuild it as in the days of long ago,
12 So that they may take possession of what is remaining of Eʹdom,
And all the nations on whom my name has been called,’ declares Jehovah, who is doing this.

That prophecy was speaking of a single people who would serve Jehovah, made up of the Jewish remnant who would accept Jesus as Messiah, and non-Jews who would learn about Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, his Son, whom he sent to unite both groups in only one.

Do you think that you personally are part of that people today?

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Re: Must the modern people of God be an organization?

Post #10

Post by 1213 »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:22 pm ... you think that this "special property" of Jehovah is constituted by people isolated from each other?
No, I don’t think they are isolated.

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