Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

[Eloi]

The Jews to whom they were first preached the good news of the Kingdom already knew who God is. Jesus and his apostles were Jews, so they knew it too. The OT is full of references to the person of God and his personal name, so Jews were considered His witnesses (Is. 43:10-12). Jesus even told the Jews that the One they believed to be their God was his own Father.

John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

Although Jesus mentioned his Father to them many times, he had to make them understand that he was the Messiah that Jehovah had promised before, but they did not believe him. In time it began to be preached to non-Jews who believed in many gods, and who had no idea of the importance of God's Messiah.

What God did Judeo-Christians speak to non-Jews when Christian congregations began to form in the first century? Did they talk about Jehovah, or did they forget about him? Can a worshiper of Jehovah forget his God?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #10]
I have no idea what you are trying to say. When Jesus said: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God.  Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word." in John 8:54,55, he meant what he said: his Father is the One who Jews say is their God ... and what you say, I have not idea what will it have to do with this matter.

And again: it was the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, who resurrected Jesus:

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned before Pilate, even though he had decided to release him.

Who is the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob if not Jehovah? And again:

Acts 5:30 The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one (...) to his right hand (...)

Who is the God of the forefathers of the Jews if not Jehovah?

Did Jesus and his disciples talk about Jehovah, the God of the forefathers of the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Or is it that by making Jehovah's name disappear from the pre-Christian Scriptures, you no longer know who the God of the Jews is?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #10]

I quoted nothing "out of context," and I just hope that the folks who are looking on here will read my post and eloi's and tigger 2's and JehovahsWitness's and reflect for themselves what makes sense to them.

[Eloi]

We can easily identify Jehovah in the prayer of Peter and the other disciples, which they did when they were released after the Jews of the Sanhedrin arrested them to intimidate them into not talking about Jesus as Messiah anymore. They had only just begun to preach publicly a very short time ago. This is the prayer they made in Acts 4:24-29.

“Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them,  and who said through holy spirit by the mouth of our forefather David, your servant: ‘Why did nations become agitated and peoples meditate on empty things? The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers gathered together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’  For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do what your hand and counsel had determined beforehand to occur. And now, Jehovah, give attention to their threats, and grant to your slaves to keep speaking your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and wonders occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

In that prayer to God the Scripture of Psalm 2 is quoted:

Psal. 2:1 Why are the nations agitated And the peoples muttering an empty thing? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

In this Psalm it is stated with complete clarity that Jesus is the anointed of Jehovah. It is obvious that Christians knew the difference between Jehovah God and his Son Jesus. Actually, in their prayer to Jehovah, they mention Jesus as Jehovah's "holy servant", not as equal to God.

Suppose there were relatives, neighbors and friends who heard that prayer of the recently released right there. Didn't they know who Jehovah is? Could they clearly distinguish Jehovah from Jesus, or not?

[PinSeeker]

Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Yes. Jesus said (and showed, in deed) He was/is Jehovah, and His disciples proclaimed Him to be Jehovah. So, yes, He... and they... did.

That is absurd.

Well, I think it's absurd not to realize that what I said here is true. So be it.

Lucid arguments are given for the idea that Jesus is not Jehovah in the thread by that name, and also the posted comments by eloi above.

And plenty of lucid arguments have been given by me and others stating otherwise.

They are definitely two different individuals.

That they are, Yes, definitely two distinct individuals.

Jesus did not pray to himself or literally raise himself from the dead. He didn't cry out to himself when he was dying on the 'cross.'

Right and wrong at the same time, so to speak. Yes, the Father and the Son are distinct persons, and in that sense He is not praying to Himself. But He and the Father are one (always were and always will be) and as such is praying for something that He knows will be granted, because He knows what the Father's will is. He did state in various other places, "This is the will of my Father," and "This is why I have come," etc. Beyond that, regarding His being raised from the dead, "...I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord...", so in a real sense, He did raise Himself from the dead. And this is the problem: the inconsistencies that the Watchtower's narrative(s) raise are irresolvable.

John 17 shows clearly that Jesus made Jehovah known to his disciples. (John 17:6, 21-26)

I agree. That was John's main theme throughout his Gospel, and that He, along with the Father (and the Holy Spirit) is Jehovah. Don't forget John 17:5, which says (and I quote from your own NWT, which is actually correct), "Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Again, Jesus was praying for something that He knew would be done; He never prayed for anything outside of the Father's will -- because He knew it, because it was His, also.

Grace and peace to you.

[Eloi]

Let's look at another way to identify Jehovah in the Christian Scriptures. If we read the Pentateuch carefully, we will realize that Jehovah told Moses that he would raise up a prophet like himself in the future:

Deut. 18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

We know that this Moses-like profet was Jesus, the Messiah, because the NT tells us so:

Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer.
19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed him, as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days.

... so we can see Jehovah again in the NT, sending Jesus as his prophet "like Moses", just as he had promised more than 1500 years before to Moses and his people Israel. So once again we clearly find the distinction between Jehovah God and his Son Jesus. Identifying Jehovah in the Christian Scriptures is very important, because it is the only way we can correctly identify the God that true Christians have always worshiped.

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also, 30 if truly God is one, who will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.

There are millions of people in the world who claim to be "Christians" but who do not know "the only true God" (John 17: 3).

[PinSeeker]

We can easily identify Jehovah in the prayer of Peter and the other disciples, which they did when they were released after the Jews of the Sanhedrin arrested them to intimidate them into not talking about Jesus as Messiah anymore. They had only just begun to preach publicly a very short time ago. This is the prayer they made in Acts 4:24-29.

“Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them,  and who said through holy spirit by the mouth of our forefather David, your servant...

Consider:

1. Are Peter and the others praying to the Father, here, Eloi? Because if they are praying to the Father, and the Father is not the Lord, as Jehovah's Witnesses would have it, then why are they addressing the Father as Lord, when, as you say, Lord is clearly the title of Jesus and not Jehovah? Did they commit a faux pas?

2. Or are Peter and the others praying to Jesus -- correctly addressing Him as Lord, of course, because again, only Jesus is Lord, as Jehovah's Witnesses would have it -- but to someone who, as mere man, cannot answer prayer, something only Jehovah can do? In addition to that, they are acknowledging in their prayer His sovereignty, which would then suggest that Jesus is sovereign over the Father... ...which of course is not true.

Well you answer this below, so I'll address it there...

Psal. 2:1 Why are the nations agitated And the peoples muttering an empty thing? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

In this Psalm it is stated with complete clarity that Jesus is the anointed of Jehovah.

Absolutely. But now let's talk about the term 'anointed.' It means 'designated,' basically, or being given a specific purpose. There is a ritual of anointment that we see in the Old Testament, of course, but that's beyond the point. Christ was anointed by God with the Holy Spirit to spread the Good News and free those who have been held captive by sin (Isaiah 61, Luke 4, Acts 10). After Christ left the earth, He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16). Now all Christians are anointed, chosen for a specific purpose in furthering God’s Kingdom (1 John 2:20). There are a few things to note, here:

The word rendered "anoint" in English means being given a specific purpose in furthering the will of the Father -- the key word being 'purpose.'

The fact that Christ was given a specific purpose to further the Father's will does not in any way establish that Christ is not Jehovah. That He is not the Father, but not that He is not Jehovah. The three persons of the Godhead most assuredly have different purposes but work together in perfect unity -- in sovereign wisdom, power and love -- to achieve the salvation of a chosen people, the Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father's will by redeeming, the Spirit executing the purpose of Father and Son by renewing.

We, as Christians, are also anointed... although not in the same way as Christ, not in the sense that Christ is the Anointed One of God. The distinction to be made is that we are in Christ, whereas Christ is in the Father AND the Father is in Christ, as Christ Himself said. But regarding us particularly, we are to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, of course, but our specific purpose is to spread the good news, to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- the ONE NAME of all three Persons -- teaching them to observe all that Jesus has commanded us. And now since we are in Christ, the Father actually looks at us and sees Christ, actually sees us as Christ, because Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us, and we are "clothed" in His righteousness.

And this leads us back to the Father and Christ, that they are "clothed" in the same righteousness; Christ was of course never not clothed in righteousness, so His righteousness was never imputed. He is the second Person of the triune Jehovah.

It is obvious that Christians knew the difference between Jehovah God and his Son Jesus.

Well, the difference in the Father and the Son, in Person and purpose. But that does absolutely nothing as far as stating that only the Father is Jehovah and the Son is not, and they knew that full well.

Actually, in their prayer to Jehovah, they mention Jesus as Jehovah's "holy servant", not as equal to God.

Ah, so you're answering the question I posed at the outset of this, that the prayer is to the Father and they address Him as Lord. Interesting... I mean, since JWs are so adamant that Jesus is Lord and not the Father... Yeah, so, I say -- and yes, I know you vehemently disagree -- that Peter and the others are absolutely praying to the triune Jehovah, all three Persons of Him... or at least the first two, the Father and the Son.

Suppose there were relatives, neighbors and friends who heard that prayer of the recently released right there. Didn't they know who Jehovah is?

Sure they did. All three Persons. Jesus told them.

Could they clearly distinguish Jehovah from Jesus, or not?

They knew that Jesus was the full embodiment of Jehovah, as Paul says in Colossians 2:9, that "...in (Christ) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily..." There is but one Deity, one God, as we both love Deuteronomy 6:4... "The LORD our God, the LORD is one"

[Eloi]

The word "lord" is a title, and it is not unique to Jehovah God.
Jesus called his Father "Lord of heaven and earth":

Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. 26 Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved."

I wonder if any trinitarian could ever imitate that act of humility of Jesus towards his God (John 20:17). As you can see, Christians in the first century did it.

[PinSeeker]

The word "lord" is a title, and it is not unique to Jehovah God. Jesus called his Father "Lord of heaven and earth"

Sure. The very title means "someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler." And the same title, Lord, belongs to the Father and the Son (and the Spirit), because They are all one; there can be only one Lord. This is our triune Jehovah, and He is indeed great.

I wonder if any trinitarian could ever imitate that act of humility of Jesus towards his God (John 20:17). As you can see, Christians in the first century did it.

Sure. As I said in the other thread, as a human, born of Mary, this is true. But as God -- God With Us, Immanuel -- He humbled Himself, and emptied Himself of His deity -- laid it aside (before His incarnation) for man's sake, and during His time on earth did not exploit it or use it in any way -- but never at any time ceased to possess itJesus Christ was/is our Model. This is what all Christians should do: endeavor to be just like Jesus... in his humanity, because of course we can never be God. But thank God for giving us the Holy Spirit, Who, as our Helper, is making us like Jesus. And, one day, we will be just like Him.

Grace and peace to all.

[Eloi]

Another way to identify Jehovah in the Christian Scriptures is related to this Hebrew text:

Psal.110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

According to that Psalm, who would sit Jesus at the right hand of Him?

That is the only pre-Christian Scriptures' text that tells us about that prophecy. However, it is not the only one in the entire Bible, because in the Christian Scriptures it is repeated many times that GOD would seat Jesus at the right hand of Him ... and as we clearly see, that GOD is Jehovah.

Eph. 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

While the Christian Scriptures say that GOD seated Jesus on his right hand, the Hebrew Scriptures tell us what the personal name of GOD is: Jehovah sit Jesus at His right hand (Psal. 110:1). Some Trinitarians cannot understand something as simple as that: How could the one who gives a position to another be the same as the one who receives that position from another?

It is as if something in some people's minds is broken and they can no longer reason clearly. But you just have to accept the things that Jesus teaches:

John 13:16 Most truly I say to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth greater than the one that sent him.

[PinSeeker]

Another way to identify Jehovah in the Christian Scriptures is related to this Hebrew text:

Psalm110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

According to that Psalm, who would sit Jesus at the right hand of Him?

Ah, Psalm 110. Discussed at length; no need to continue in a different thread. It's fairly recent; I'm sure you can find it if you want. But as I have said recently, being seated at God's right hand does not mean merely -- woodenly -- being seated on the opposite side of God's left. Well, I'll expound on that a bit: it means being seated in God's power, which, drawing on the thread that Wootah just started on Philippians 2, is a restoring of Jesus to the position as the second person of the triune Jehovah always possessed by Christ from eternity passed (this is exactly what Jesus prayed in absolute confidence for in John 17), but that He humbled Himself and emptied Himself of for a time -- laid it aside and ceased to use it for a time (during His life on earth) -- for the sake of man. This was His perfect example of humility,

That is the only pre-Christian Scriptures' text that tells us about that prophecy. However, it is not the only one in the entire Bible, because in the Christian Scriptures it is repeated many times that GOD would seat Jesus at the right hand of Him ... and as we clearly see, that GOD is Jehovah.

Agreed. And God... Jehovah... exists in three distinct Persons, Who, together, are one. One has to see that God/Jehovah is at least a duality (the Father and the Son) because, God's power is not divided, or distributed, or shared. But so be it.

While the Christian Scriptures say that GOD seated Jesus on his right hand, the Hebrew Scriptures tell us what the personal name of GOD is: Jehovah sit Jesus at His right hand (Psalm 110:1). Some Trinitarians cannot understand something as simple as that: How could the one who gives a position to another be the same as the one who receives that position from another?

LOL! The personal name of God/Jehovah/YHVH is "I AM." And Jesus assigns that name to Himself in John 8:58 (which I know you vehemently disagree with, but that's been discussed at length, too). So again, God/Jehovah/YHVH is at least a duality. And that takes us back to the immediately preceding statement above, which takes us back to the one preceding that above.

It is as if something in some people's minds is broken and they can no longer reason clearly.

Well, sort of, but it's just a result of the fall, really. Sin. Pride. All those things.

But you just have to accept the things that Jesus teaches...

Agreed.

John 13:16 Most truly I say to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth greater than the one that sent him.

Right, but there is absolutely NO IMPLICATION that the slave is lesser than His master. If there were, it would present an irresolvable conflict with many other things Jesus said and with the rest of John's gospel, and, thanks be to God, that is not the case.

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.