Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi
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Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

The Jews to whom they were first preached the good news of the Kingdom already knew who God is. Jesus and his apostles were Jews, so they knew it too. The OT is full of references to the person of God and his personal name, so Jews were considered His witnesses (Is. 43:10-12). Jesus even told the Jews that the One they believed to be their God was his own Father.

John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

Although Jesus mentioned his Father to them many times, he had to make them understand that he was the Messiah that Jehovah had promised before, but they did not believe him. In time it began to be preached to non-Jews who believed in many gods, and who had no idea of the importance of God's Messiah.

What God did Judeo-Christians speak to non-Jews when Christian congregations began to form in the first century? Did they talk about Jehovah, or did they forget about him? Can a worshiper of Jehovah forget his God?

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:13 pm Implicit in the definition of these synonyms is the fact that an anointed one, Christ or Messiah, cannot in any way be the same person who anoints. It was Jehovah WHO anointed Jesus...
Yeah, no argument here. I have said many, many times that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have distinctive roles in the triune Godhead. Sure.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:13 pm So did Jesus Christ ever believe that he himself was Jehovah?
Yes, He said, "I and Father are one" (John 10:30).
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:13 pm The simple idea is laughable.
Well, I both agree and disagree on the simplicity of it...

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:31 pm John 17:6 “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world...
Don't forget John 17:5, where, in that same prayer, He says, "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

It is very clear throughout the Bible that Jesus would never appropriate Jehovah's identity or use the name of the Most High God to make believe that he was himself. That would have been as inappropriate and disrespectful as kneeling before Satan when he asked to make a "financial" deal with him.

Rev. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
... 14:1Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

God has a name, and his Son has another one. The name of God is Jehovah, or in hebrew YHWH.

Psal. 83:18 May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:37 pm It is very clear throughout the Bible that Jesus would never appropriate Jehovah's identity or use the name of the Most High God to make believe that he was himself.
So you say, yeah. I say the exact opposite. I mean, He does say, in so many words, that He is not the Father. But, He and the Father are one. Just as He said. And then there's John 8:58...
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:37 pm The name of God is Jehovah, or in hebrew YHWH.
The English word 'Jehovah' derives from a German transliteration that traces back to the 1500s AD. It is a combination of YHWH and the vowels from Adonai, the word for “Lord.” Linguists today universally agree that the divine name was never intended to be pronounced “Jehovah,” as “Yahweh” best reflects the Hebrew consonants and vowels given to Moses. Yahweh is related to the verbal root “to be,” as seen in the phrase “I Am Who I Am” (Ex. 3:14). Yahweh thus means “I Am.” Jesus takes this same name for Himself (John 8:58), thereby showing His claim to be one with the Father and therefore worthy of our worship.

What's interesting is that in insisting on using 'Jehovah,' JWs -- inadvertently, of course -- proclaim the oneness, and the sameness in essence, of the Father and the Son.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

There is a prophecy from the Hebrew Scriptures that 1st century Christians remembered when non-Jews began to worship Jehovah, the Jewish God, and follow the Messiah sent by Jehovah, His Christ.

Amos 9:11 ‘In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen,
I will repair the breaches,
And I will restore its ruins;
I will rebuild it as in the days of long ago,
12 So that they may take possession of what is remaining of Eʹdom,
And all the nations on whom my name has been called,’ declares Jehovah, who is doing this.

With the help of the holy spirit, the Governing Body of the Christians of that time located in Jerusalem, came to the conclusion that the Gentiles would become part of the people who bear the name of Jehovah, as Israel had been before the Christians. In a meeting they had in Jerusalem to decide whether the Gentiles should be circumcised or not, they came to the following conclusion:

Acts 15:14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God ..."

Notice that Judeo-Christians who recognized the acceptance of the Gentiles in their people by God, spoke of the people that Jehovah would take out of the nations for His name. What name was that?

Is. 2:2 In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it all the nations will stream.
3 And many peoples will go and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
To the house of the God of Jacob.
He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.”
For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.

So did first-century Christians forget Jehovah? Did the apostles ever believe that Jesus Christ was Jehovah? Of course NOT; the idea is completely laughable. Christendom, however, invented a god that has nothing to do with the God that the Bible talks about or that Jesus taught.

Either you follow Jesus and his apostles or you follow the theologians of Christendom with their inventions. You canot follow both.
Each one has to choose who he is going to listen to.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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And I say again to all this that the English word "Jehovah" derives from a German transliteration that traces back to the 1500s AD... it is a combination of Yahweh (YHWH) and the vowels from Adonai, the word for “Lord.” There is nothing wrong with it in and of itself, for sure, but it would stand to reason that the very name that Jehovah's Witnesses insist on using testifies incontrovertibly to the fact that, while the Father and the Son are distinct Persons, They are one in essence and together with the Holy Spirit triune, the one true God, YHWH. As I said, linguists today universally agree that the divine name was never intended to be pronounced “Jehovah,” as “Yahweh” best reflects the Hebrew consonants and vowels given to Moses. Yahweh is related to the verbal root “to be,” as seen in the phrase “I Am Who I Am” (Ex. 3:14). Yahweh thus means “I AM.” Jesus takes this same name for Himself (John 8:58), thereby making crystal clear His claim to be one with the Father and therefore worthy of our worship. The original hearers knew this (that's why they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy), and at least many readers today do the same, and in both cases, some believe it, while some, unfortunately, do not.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:22 pm So did first-century Christians forget Jehovah?
Of course not. They fully knew who Jehovah was/is... "fully," because unlike believers in Old Testament times, they saw Him face to face, as Jesus Himself said (in John 14:9 -- "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father"). And we (at least some of us, anyway), do, too, although not yet in person. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "(f)or now we see in a mirror dimly, but then..." -- when Jesus returns -- "...face to face. Now (we, like Paul) know in part; then (we, like Paul) shall know fully, even as (we, like Paul) have been fully known."
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:22 pm Did the apostles ever believe that Jesus Christ was Jehovah?
Of course they did, because Jesus Christ told them (and others) directly. Several times, including John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I AM."), John 10::11 ("I am the good shepherd"), John 10:30 ("I and the Father are one"), John 14:9 ("Whoever has seen me has seen the Father")... and on and on. That Jesus was/is Jehovah in the flesh is the main theme of John's entire gospel. But the others testify to it, too; Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, all of them.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:22 pm Of course NOT; the idea is completely laughable.
Well, any people of Jesus's day -- aside from the disciples/apostles, of course -- wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that they knew He was claiming to be Jehovah. So calling it "laughable" is... laughable itself. If Jesus made this claim (which He did, of course), then it's either true or it's the most obscene offense possible, but certainly not laughable in by any stretch of the imagination. There were people then, just as there are now, who don't take Him at His word, and sadly, to Jehovah's Witnesses and others are among these, but this does not make it untrue.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:22 pm Christendom, however, invented a god that has nothing to do with the God that the Bible talks about or that Jesus taught.
So because Jesus -- among other things -- a) assigns the personal name of the Father, Who is Jehovah, to Himself, b) claims to be all the same things to His people that the Father, Who is Jehovah, is, and c) does things that only the Father, Who is Jehovah, can do... and these things aside from the fact that Jesus directly said -- and the apostles, most notably Paul and Peter (who together wrote the vast majority of the New Testament, reiterated several times... Wow. I mean, if what you were saying were true, it would be accurate to say that Jesus lied and the apostles perpetuated these lies -- and even to say, since God is the really Author of all Scripture, that God lied about Himself. But, of course, we know that it's impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:22 pm Either you follow Jesus and his apostles or you follow the theologians of Christendom with their inventions. You cannot follow both.
But people need to be able to discern what these "inventions" are and what are not, right, Eloi? :) You know, instead of, as Paul says, because of itching ears not enduring sound teaching and accumulating for themselves teachers to suit their own passions (1 Timothy 4:3). You and I, Eloi, would sharply disagree on what the inventions are and thus who the inventors are, right? :D I say the inventions took place around 1831 or so. And there were others around that time, too, most notably Thomas Darby and those who followed after him and came to believe in a premillennial "rapture." Anyway, not that those streams of "thought" weren't around before then, as there is nothing new under the sun (gnosticism, hellenism, stoicism, etc.), but still, yes, in the early 1830s. The Enlightenment certainly had some good effects, but it had its share of bad effects... on a whole lot of things. Fortunately, though, while the grass withers and the flowers fade, the Word of our God stands forever.
Eloi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:22 pm Each one has to choose who he is going to listen to.
True. Absolutely.

Round and round we go... :D

Grace and peace to all.
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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by CarolClark »

Well, as more you debate, as more your faith is not so true. Jesus and his disciples had preached the Lord's words and spread His love. I truly believe in Holy Bible, and I can't deny every word written there. God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have a definite role, but together they are a whole. We read about Jesus's death, the deaths of the disciples, and we all believe it had a purpose. Waiting for the second coming of Jesus. Amen!
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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by onewithhim »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:20 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:23 pm That Scripture has been tampered with, and that can be proven by examining many other translations that use the original Greek rather than the King James Version (which went with the Latin).
Right, by the WTS. Sure. That's the point. Or one of them, anyway. Thanks for reiterating it, although you have it backwards.

Grace and peace to you.
I did extensive research on my own, and I say what I said because I proved it for myself. The WTS just happens to coincide with the research.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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onewithhim wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:54 am I did extensive research on my own, and I say what I said because I proved it for myself. The WTS just happens to coincide with the research.
Well good for you. Or... well, not so much... :) But okay. Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

In this paragraph of an article on the subject that I studied some time ago, the matter is summarized this way:

Satan blurs people’s view of Jehovah. After the death of Jesus’ apostles, some who claimed to be Christians began to spread false teachings. (Acts 20:29, 30) These apostates started to blur the identity of the only true God. For example, they stopped using the divine name in their copies of the Bible and preferred such expressions as “Lord.” By removing God’s personal name and replacing it with “Lord,” they made it difficult for a Bible reader to see how Jehovah is different from the other “lords” mentioned in the Scriptures. (1 Cor. 8:5) They used the same term, “Lord,” for Jehovah and for Jesus, making it difficult to understand that Jehovah and his Son are different individuals with distinct positions. (John 17:3) This confusion contributed to the development of the doctrine of the Trinity—a doctrine not taught in God’s Word. As a result, many see God as mysterious and believe that we cannot know him. What a lie!—Acts 17:27.

Satan wants people not to know who Jehovah is, because he knows that salvation depends on it:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

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