Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi
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Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

The Jews to whom they were first preached the good news of the Kingdom already knew who God is. Jesus and his apostles were Jews, so they knew it too. The OT is full of references to the person of God and his personal name, so Jews were considered His witnesses (Is. 43:10-12). Jesus even told the Jews that the One they believed to be their God was his own Father.

John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

Although Jesus mentioned his Father to them many times, he had to make them understand that he was the Messiah that Jehovah had promised before, but they did not believe him. In time it began to be preached to non-Jews who believed in many gods, and who had no idea of the importance of God's Messiah.

What God did Judeo-Christians speak to non-Jews when Christian congregations began to form in the first century? Did they talk about Jehovah, or did they forget about him? Can a worshiper of Jehovah forget his God?

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?
Yes. Jesus said (and showed, in deed) He was/is Jehovah, and His disciples proclaimed Him to be Jehovah. So, yes, He... and they... did.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm The OT is full of references to the person of God and his personal name...
Yes, and Jesus said the Old Testament -- in it's entirety; Moses and all the Prophets -- was about Him.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm ...Jews were considered His witnesses (Is. 43:10-12).
And we are, all of us, both ethnic Jew and Gentile believers. We are all true Jews. Let's backtrack just a bit in Isaiah 43, though. Before He gets to verses 10-12, He states who He is and what He has done, is doing, and will do for His people. And in verse 3 in particular, He says -- through Isaiah, of course -- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the LORD (Jehovah) your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior." If it is the Father speaking (and it is), why is it that, in addition to calling Himself the LORD (Jehovah), He also say He is the Holy One of Israel as well as its (our) Savior? Well because He's all of the above, of course. But yes, we are His witnesses. Sure.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm Jesus even told the Jews that the One they believed to be their God was his own Father.

John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word."
And He went on to proclaim Himself -- just short four verses later -- to be Jehovah, assigning the name of the LORD to Himself, a very clear reference to Exodus 3:14. And the Jews knew it; that's why they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy. The NWT is very clearly altered in John 8:58. He did not say "before Abraham was, I have been," but rather, "before Abraham was, I am." Properly translated to English from the Greek, it is not merely past tense (participle), but present -- always present, past, present, and future.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm What God did Judeo-Christians speak to non-Jews about when Christian congregations began to form in the first century?
The triune Jehovah God.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm Did they talk about Jehovah, or did they forget about him?
LOL! See above.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm Can a worshiper of Jehovah forget his God?
If he's not worshiping in spirit and truth, yes, actually.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

When Jesus visited the temple in Jerusalem, which was still standing in his day, he found several merchants there doing business. Jesus was very upset and said to them:

John 2:16 And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of commerce!” 17 His disciples recalled that it is written: “The zeal for your house will consume me.”

No disciple of Jesus ever believed that he was Jehovah. That is the christ of the myth, the invented Christ ... not the real one.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:02 pm No disciple of Jesus ever believed that he was Jehovah.
Two things here:

1. There's no way anyone can say that for certain, much less you.
2. I disagree wholeheartedly. I think at least some of his disciples knew exactly what He was saying when He told them (recorded in John 10) that He was the Good Shepherd (among other things). Certainly, John did.
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:02 pm That is the christ of the myth, the invented Christ ... not the real one.
We are well aware of your opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by onewithhim »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:44 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:38 pm Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?
Yes. Jesus said (and showed, in deed) He was/is Jehovah, and His disciples proclaimed Him to be Jehovah. So, yes, He... and they... did.
That is absurd. Lucid arguments are given for the idea that Jesus is not Jehovah in the thread by that name, and also the posted comments by eloi above. They are definitely two different individuals. Jesus did not pray to himself or literally raise himself from the dead. He didn't cry out to himself when he was dying on the 'cross.'

John 17 shows clearly that Jesus made Jehovah known to his disciples. (John 17:6, 21-26)

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Difflugia »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pmLucid arguments are given for the idea that Jesus is not Jehovah in the thread by that name, and also the posted comments by eloi above.
In the other thread and this one, it's assumed and asserted, but never supported, that the Father and Jehovah are identically equal.

A spokesman may be authorized to speak for a company, while being the employee of the company. "Kraft announced today that it will no longer sell cheese." If that spokesman asks the president of the company what to say next, is it Kraft inquiring of Kraft? Is that an "absurd" set of circumstances?
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by Eloi »

I know of people who are deniers, who see things in front of their eyes and still don't accept them. I also know of mockers, who do not care about the truth and only try to play with people who talk to them about something. I still know people who are so self-convinced that they have a superior vision to the rest of the world that they will never hear o see anything else but what their own mind shows them. Some of those are so confused that they will think that this supposed "visionism" is revealed in their demagoguery and mistreatment to the persons with whom they speak, as if it were a competition of fallacies ... because they do not belong to the world of the truth and their behavior will be according to the world to which they belong.

The Scriptures clearly state that Jehovah is only the Father of Jesus Christ. As I mentioned earlier, Jesus told the Jews here:

John 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

Not clear enough for you? Or, can't you see something that is so obvious in those words of Jesus?

I also mentioned to you when Jesus referred to Jehovah's temple in Jerusalem as his Father's house in John 2:13-17. And again: Not clear enough for you? Or, can't you see something that is so obvious in those words of Jesus? ... or maybe you are that kind of persons I mention before.

Those passages are just a couple of examples. The NT is full of them, and I opened this topic to show them. Whoever thinks clearly will be able to notice reality, if he belongs to the truth.

See this other example:

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned before Pilate, even though he had decided to release him.

PD: I am not here to play games with the kind of persons I mention before, so, do not expect a response from me to that kind of nonsense comments; I am not here competing with anyone to determine who is more demagogue than the other ... although some believe that this is "being an apologist", because it is what it is sold in Christendom, by some of their theologians .

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

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Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm
Jesus did not pray to himself or literally raise himself from the dead. He didn't cry out to himself when he was dying on the 'cross.'
But surely you know that orthodox Christians don't believe that Jesus prayed to himself or cried out to himself, right?

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #9

Post by onewithhim »

Difflugia wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:56 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pmLucid arguments are given for the idea that Jesus is not Jehovah in the thread by that name, and also the posted comments by eloi above.
In the other thread and this one, it's assumed and asserted, but never supported, that the Father and Jehovah are identically equal.

A spokesman may be authorized to speak for a company, while being the employee of the company. "Kraft announced today that it will no longer sell cheese." If that spokesman asks the president of the company what to say next, is it Kraft inquiring of Kraft? Is that an "absurd" set of circumstances?
It is easy to show support for the fact that the Father is Jehovah. Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 to show that he was anointed by Jehovah and SENT BY Jehovah. He knew the original Hebrew of that scripture and would know that Jehovah's name (the Tetragrammaton) appeared in the scripture, Isaiah 61, that he read. (He said that that scripture applied to him, at Luke 4:18-21.) So....Jehovah sent the Messiah, Jesus, according to Jesus' understanding, which we should heed. When he prayed to his Father (John 17) he stated clearly that the the Father had sent him.

ISAIAH 61:1: "The spirit of Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive...." (NWT; Young's Literal Translation; American Standard)

LUKE 4:18-21: Jesus read: "'Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah's acceptable year.' With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. Then he started to say to them: 'Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.'"

JOHN 17:3,25: In prayer to the Father: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."..."Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth."

Therefore, we can see plainly that Jesus showed that Jehovah sent him forth, and Jehovah = the Father, because he said the Father sent him forth.
The Father = Jehovah

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Re: Did Jesus and his disciples tell others about Jehovah?

Post #10

Post by Difflugia »

Eloi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:02 amI know of people who are deniers, who see things in front of their eyes and still don't accept them.
ikr?

"I and the Father are one."—John's Jesus
Eloi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:02 amNot clear enough for you? Or, can't you see something that is so obvious in those words of Jesus?
QFT
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:53 pm
Difflugia wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:56 amA spokesman may be authorized to speak for a company, while being the employee of the company. "Kraft announced today that it will no longer sell cheese." If that spokesman asks the president of the company what to say next, is it Kraft inquiring of Kraft? Is that an "absurd" set of circumstances?
It is easy to show support for the fact that the Father is Jehovah. Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 to show that he was anointed by Jehovah and SENT BY Jehovah.
"Kraft sent me to tell you that we no longer sell cheese."
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:53 pmWhen he prayed to his Father (John 17) he stated clearly that the the Father had sent him.
"In fact, the president of the company sent me."

Look, you're in the same position as trinitarians. There are multiple authors in the Bible, each having a different Christology. Some of the differences are subtle, some are not. Whether or not it's technically trinitarian, John's hypostatic union, like Philo's, means that the Logos is Yahweh in a way that is at least incompatible with the Christology of Jehovah's Witnesses. An honest reading of John's prologue makes that at least as "clear" as anything else you're calling obvious. On the other hand, neither the Synoptics nor Paul equate Jesus and Yahweh. In fact, it's not even clear that any of them considered Jesus to be pre-existent and I'm convinced that Mark is adoptionist. Anyone that tries to synthesize those incompatible visions of Jesus into a consistent whole will have to make compromises. Trinitarians must contend with the Synoptics just as you must contend with John's hypostatic union.

Trinitarian theologians know the verses you're quoting, know how they fit into their consistent Christology, and have been arguing over the finer details for centuries. If you think it's so obvious that just quoting a few verses out of context will overthrow nearly two millennia of men cloistered away in monasteries doing naught but studying Scripture, then the limitation is yours, not theirs.

As I've said before, there are interesting and challenging arguments to be made against the Trinity. "How can Jesus pray to himself," is not one of them.
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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