The Atonement

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Revelations won
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The Atonement

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".

Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?

What does the atonement do or does not do?

What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?

What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?

Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?

I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: The Atonement

Post #321

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30. You are simply applying the message of the serpent (Genesis 3:4) and his false prophet Paul. Those who won't be thrown into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15), will be those written in the "book of life", which was written from the foundations of the world (Revelation 13:8). Those would be the "elect", and it is by the grace of God that they are in that book. Those who worship the "beast", Julius Caesar, who ruled as emperor for 42 months (Rev 13:5), or his following emperor, Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb, will not be written in the "book of life". You can join the demons and believe, yet keep in mind, all the time the demons believe (James 2:9), they are trembling in anticipation of their coming doom.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #322

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30.
No, you aren't understanding that there are two types of sin---deliberate, and then, those that we can't help (because of the inheritance from Adam). We carry the blame for our own iniquities. If they are deliberate, Jesus' blood does not cover them. (Ezekiel 18:23-26; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 6:4-6) God has given us the choice. We can stop deliberately sinning and place ourselves at his mercy to forgive us for NON_DELIBERATE sins on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #323

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30.
No, you aren't understanding that there are two types of sin---deliberate, and then, those that we can't help (because of the inheritance from Adam). We carry the blame for our own iniquities. If they are deliberate, Jesus' blood does not cover them. (Ezekiel 18:23-26; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 6:4-6) God has given us the choice. We can stop deliberately sinning and place ourselves at his mercy to forgive us for NON_DELIBERATE sins on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18 is about "the soul which sins will die". (Ez 18:4). As for what some unknown author in Hebrews says is somewhat irrelevant It has ties to the false prophet Paul, whose message is that the law of God is nailed to a cross, wherefore there is no more sin, for he/Paul isn't the one who sins, but the evil which indwells within him (Romans 7). Adam died for his own sin, and his sons do not carry his sins (Ez 18:1-4 & Jeremiah 31:29). The message of Paul, the false gospel of grace, is the wide path to destruction (Mt 7:13-23).

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Re: The Atonement

Post #324

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30.
No, you aren't understanding that there are two types of sin---deliberate, and then, those that we can't help (because of the inheritance from Adam). We carry the blame for our own iniquities. If they are deliberate, Jesus' blood does not cover them. (Ezekiel 18:23-26; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 6:4-6) God has given us the choice. We can stop deliberately sinning and place ourselves at his mercy to forgive us for NON_DELIBERATE sins on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18 is about "the soul which sins will die". (Ez 18:4)
Yes, that is: the person who deliberately sins will die. Did you not understand my comment? Do you not understand the difference between willful sins and non-deliberate sins? Do you remember at all what the Apostle John wrote about it? He spoke of a Christian committing a "sin that does NOT incur death," or, a non-deliberate sin which he can't help because of being a descendant of Adam. (I John 5:16) In that same verse he says that "There IS a sin that DOES incur death, or, a deliberate sin. So he distinguishes between deliberate and non-deliberate sins, as does Ezekiel and also Paul.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #325

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:48 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30.
No, you aren't understanding that there are two types of sin---deliberate, and then, those that we can't help (because of the inheritance from Adam). We carry the blame for our own iniquities. If they are deliberate, Jesus' blood does not cover them. (Ezekiel 18:23-26; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 6:4-6) God has given us the choice. We can stop deliberately sinning and place ourselves at his mercy to forgive us for NON_DELIBERATE sins on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18 is about "the soul which sins will die". (Ez 18:4)
Yes, that is: the person who deliberately sins will die. Did you not understand my comment? Do you not understand the difference between willful sins and non-deliberate sins? Do you remember at all what the Apostle John wrote about it? He spoke of a Christian committing a "sin that does NOT incur death," or, a non-deliberate sin which he can't help because of being a descendant of Adam. (I John 5:16) In that same verse he says that "There IS a sin that DOES incur death, or, a deliberate sin. So he distinguishes between deliberate and non-deliberate sins, as does Ezekiel and also Paul.
Adding your commentary to what John actually said only puts you in the light of an interloper, and apparently one who tries to twist what was actually said. Being a descendant of Adam is not a sin, and is not punished, as correctly established in Jeremiah 31:29. Everyone will suffer due to their own sins, and their sons will not bear the consequences of their fathers sins. There are unforgivable sins like intentionally killing an innocent. An unintentional sin would be unknowingly sitting on the same seat vacated by a women on her period, which is with respect to uncleanliness. The proscription for that would be to wash to become clean. If you read 1 John 5, then you should know that anyone "born of God" does not sin, but the "whole world lies in the power of the evil one". What separates you from your brother "Christians"? Do they sin, and you do not. Sin is transgression of he law, yet, your leader, Paul, has nailed the law to a pagan cross, and you follow his prescription for "righteousness", which according to Mt 13, is the same as "wickedness", relating to those "who commit lawlessness". Those who "commit lawlessness" are relegated to being "gathered" and thrown into "the furnace of fire" (Mt 13:41-42). I am thinking that your foundation built on sand (Mt 7:26) is coming to and end, as we are now at the "end of the age" (Mt 13:39-42)

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Re: The Atonement

Post #326

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:05 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:48 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30.
No, you aren't understanding that there are two types of sin---deliberate, and then, those that we can't help (because of the inheritance from Adam). We carry the blame for our own iniquities. If they are deliberate, Jesus' blood does not cover them. (Ezekiel 18:23-26; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 6:4-6) God has given us the choice. We can stop deliberately sinning and place ourselves at his mercy to forgive us for NON_DELIBERATE sins on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18 is about "the soul which sins will die". (Ez 18:4)
Yes, that is: the person who deliberately sins will die. Did you not understand my comment? Do you not understand the difference between willful sins and non-deliberate sins? Do you remember at all what the Apostle John wrote about it? He spoke of a Christian committing a "sin that does NOT incur death," or, a non-deliberate sin which he can't help because of being a descendant of Adam. (I John 5:16) In that same verse he says that "There IS a sin that DOES incur death, or, a deliberate sin. So he distinguishes between deliberate and non-deliberate sins, as does Ezekiel and also Paul.
Adding your commentary to what John actually said only puts you in the light of an interloper, and apparently one who tries to twist what was actually said. Being a descendant of Adam is not a sin, and is not punished, as correctly established in Jeremiah 31:29. Everyone will suffer due to their own sins, and their sons will not bear the consequences of their fathers sins. There are unforgivable sins like intentionally killing an innocent. An unintentional sin would be unknowingly sitting on the same seat vacated by a women on her period, which is with respect to uncleanliness. The proscription for that would be to wash to become clean. If you read 1 John 5, then you should know that anyone "born of God" does not sin, but the "whole world lies in the power of the evil one". What separates you from your brother "Christians"? Do they sin, and you do not. Sin is transgression of he law, yet, your leader, Paul, has nailed the law to a pagan cross, and you follow his prescription for "righteousness", which according to Mt 13, is the same as "wickedness", relating to those "who commit lawlessness". Those who "commit lawlessness" are relegated to being "gathered" and thrown into "the furnace of fire" (Mt 13:41-42). I am thinking that your foundation built on sand (Mt 7:26) is coming to and end, as we are now at the "end of the age" (Mt 13:39-42)
You talk out of both sides of your mouth. I see that you do understand what unintentional sin is and the difference between that and deliberate sin, yet you castigate me for saying the same. You realize that deliberate sin is death-dealing, yet you misunderstand where it says in I John that anyone "born of God" does not sin. You know that it means that this person will not DELIBERATELY sin, since we cannot help unintentional sin. If you follow what has been said, you would have to agree that I have not twisted anything. Why even say something like "what separates you from other Christians"? I do not separate myself from other Christians. They all are descendants of Adam, as am I, and we all sin (John also says that if someone says he does not sin, he is a liar/I John 1:8), unintentionally, so I would never say that I do not sin.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #327

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 7:20 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:05 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:48 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:44 am [Replying to Brightfame52 in post #312]

That is God's will.....but people have to want to accept Christ as their Savior. If not, they will eventually die.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will die regardless (Jeremiah 31:30).
I'm talking about eternal death. Those that choose to accept Christ's sacrifice will be able to live forever. Those that don't will die.

"The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)
Your accepting a sacrifice of another for your own iniquities, is counter to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30.
No, you aren't understanding that there are two types of sin---deliberate, and then, those that we can't help (because of the inheritance from Adam). We carry the blame for our own iniquities. If they are deliberate, Jesus' blood does not cover them. (Ezekiel 18:23-26; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 6:4-6) God has given us the choice. We can stop deliberately sinning and place ourselves at his mercy to forgive us for NON_DELIBERATE sins on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18 is about "the soul which sins will die". (Ez 18:4)
Yes, that is: the person who deliberately sins will die. Did you not understand my comment? Do you not understand the difference between willful sins and non-deliberate sins? Do you remember at all what the Apostle John wrote about it? He spoke of a Christian committing a "sin that does NOT incur death," or, a non-deliberate sin which he can't help because of being a descendant of Adam. (I John 5:16) In that same verse he says that "There IS a sin that DOES incur death, or, a deliberate sin. So he distinguishes between deliberate and non-deliberate sins, as does Ezekiel and also Paul.
Adding your commentary to what John actually said only puts you in the light of an interloper, and apparently one who tries to twist what was actually said. Being a descendant of Adam is not a sin, and is not punished, as correctly established in Jeremiah 31:29. Everyone will suffer due to their own sins, and their sons will not bear the consequences of their fathers sins. There are unforgivable sins like intentionally killing an innocent. An unintentional sin would be unknowingly sitting on the same seat vacated by a women on her period, which is with respect to uncleanliness. The proscription for that would be to wash to become clean. If you read 1 John 5, then you should know that anyone "born of God" does not sin, but the "whole world lies in the power of the evil one". What separates you from your brother "Christians"? Do they sin, and you do not. Sin is transgression of he law, yet, your leader, Paul, has nailed the law to a pagan cross, and you follow his prescription for "righteousness", which according to Mt 13, is the same as "wickedness", relating to those "who commit lawlessness". Those who "commit lawlessness" are relegated to being "gathered" and thrown into "the furnace of fire" (Mt 13:41-42). I am thinking that your foundation built on sand (Mt 7:26) is coming to and end, as we are now at the "end of the age" (Mt 13:39-42)
You talk out of both sides of your mouth. I see that you do understand what unintentional sin is and the difference between that and deliberate sin, yet you castigate me for saying the same. You realize that deliberate sin is death-dealing, yet you misunderstand where it says in I John that anyone "born of God" does not sin. You know that it means that this person will not DELIBERATELY sin, since we cannot help unintentional sin. If you follow what has been said, you would have to agree that I have not twisted anything. Why even say something like "what separates you from other Christians"? I do not separate myself from other Christians. They all are descendants of Adam, as am I, and we all sin (John also says that if someone says he does not sin, he is a liar/I John 1:8), unintentionally, so I would never say that I do not sin.
You sound a little double minded. You say you can't say you don't sin, yet you say those born of God cannot sin. As for the sin of uncleanliness, that is for the holy people, the people of God, Israel (Ez 37:23-24). That has nothing to do with "sinning" because you are supposedly a son of Adam. Are you of Israel? And as a JW, you do separate yourself from other so called "Christians", and you believe your JWs are already in heaven reigning over the earth. I am not sure how you differentiate between youself and the other so called "Christians", except maybe you recognize that naming the month July after Julius Caesar, is maybe god worship. I am not sure how you differentiate between youself and other so called "Christians". If you think you don't break the Commandments, why do you keep the commandments of Constantine, and keep his day of rest? I don't know, I am thinking you already have the mark of the beast, which means you will have to drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Rev 14:10).

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Re: The Atonement

Post #328

Post by Brightfame52 »

To be married to another !

Christ death accomplished that all for whom He died should be married to another.

Rom 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The believer is become dead to the Law, its condemnation, and all of its requirements as a covenant of works, do and live. Now how are believers in Christ dead to the Law ? Is it by their Faith in Christ ? No sir, its by the Body of Christ, meaning His Death and all that it accomplished for them in regards to God's Law. He kept it perfectly for them, and where they did offend, He bore the full cup of God's wrath for them, and the end design was so that they can be married to another to another, even Him that has been raised up from the dead for their Justification Rom 4:25, that they may bring forth Fruit unto God, that is perform those good works that God before hath ordained they they should walk in Eph 2:10.

Marriage is an fellowship, a Experiential Union, so all for whom Christ died, God out of Faithfulness calls them into the Fellowship of His Son 1 Cor 1:9

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

The word unto is the preposition eis and denotes into as in entrance into, this call actually results in entering into experiential union and fellowship with Christ !

This is an accomplishment of the Death of Christ for all whom He died and rose again for their Justification.4

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Re: The Atonement

Post #329

Post by Brightfame52 »

Christ's Atoning Death !

By Atonement is meant that Christ having died in the place of or in the stead of certain Chosen sinners, taking upon Himself the due and Just punishment that was due their sins, transgressions, iniquities, and offences, and for that made a sin offering, the Just for the unjust [sinners] in order that or for the purpose of bringing them to God 1 Pet 3:18

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Thats effecting atonement when those Christ died for, as a benefit from His Death, have it all done to them and in them, that is necessary, Spiritually, that brings them unto Faith and Fellowship with God !

Anything short of this outcome is not an atonement, and means Christ death did not succeed for those He died to bring to God. However Paul says it did succeed, because He writes, by Him [Christ] we have received Atonement Rom 5:11

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ by whom we have now received the atonement

What that means is that by Christ, His Death, His accomplishment, we have been experimentally reconciled to God [become believers] Col 1:21

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The greek word here for reconciled is Apokatallasso and means:

to reconcile completely

to reconcile back again

bring back a former state of harmony

Yes, this is the Atonement Christ death alone accomplished for everyone He died for ,it brings them back into harmony and fellowship with God, like they had with God before they sinned in Adam.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #330

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #1]

Can you define what you mean by Atonement?

I am simply clarifying your belief with others' beliefs.

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