The Atonement

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Revelations won
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The Atonement

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".

Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?

What does the atonement do or does not do?

What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?

What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?

Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?

I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: The Atonement

Post #71

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.

.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #72

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.
But the Bible states that there was a fault in the original covenant.

I believe the Bible.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #73

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.
But the Bible states that there was a fault in the original covenant.

I believe the Bible.
Please provide book, chapter and verse. Thank you.

.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #74

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:48 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.
But the Bible states that there was a fault in the original covenant.

I believe the Bible.
Please provide book, chapter and verse. Thank you.

.


Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament:
Hebrews 8:6-7 wrote:But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Book: Hebrews

Chapter: 8

Verses: 6-7

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Re: The Atonement

Post #75

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:45 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:48 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.
But the Bible states that there was a fault in the original covenant.

I believe the Bible.
Please provide book, chapter and verse. Thank you.

.


Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament:
Hebrews 8:6-7 wrote:But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Book: Hebrews

Chapter: 8

Verses: 6-7
I see it this way......in the covenant with humans given to Adam, there was no provision for the anointed "holy ones" that would eventually rule with Christ, because at that time there was no need for Christ to come.

.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #76

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:03 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:45 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:48 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.
But the Bible states that there was a fault in the original covenant.

I believe the Bible.
Please provide book, chapter and verse. Thank you.

.


Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament:
Hebrews 8:6-7 wrote:But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Book: Hebrews

Chapter: 8

Verses: 6-7
I see it this way......in the covenant with humans given to Adam, there was no provision for the anointed "holy ones" that would eventually rule with Christ, because at that time there was no need for Christ to come.

.
No.

The purpose of man is to eventually replace the angels who left their first estate (the earth) under the control of Satan and warred against God in Heaven.

One characteristic which these replacements must apparently have is immortality -- as the rebels which rebelled had immortality.

But why risk creating more immortal angelic beings and risk being stuck with more rebels forever?

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and obey God as a prerequisite to becoming spiritual beings which live forever.

So the covenant was designed to produce obedient replacements for the rebellious angels which failed in their assignment.

The fault in that first covenant should now be obvious!

HINT: How many humans had become heirs unto everlasting life prior to Jesus being born?

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Re: The Atonement

Post #77

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:03 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:45 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:48 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:41 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #67]

Adam and Eve will be treated fairly & justly under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind -- as every other human.
They were "treated fairly & justly" when Jehovah condemned them to die.
Yes, they were treated fairly and justly under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that covenant was found to contain a fault, so a new covenant was created to replace the original covenant.

To be fair and just now, all involved will be judged under the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind, which resolved the fault in the original covenant.
There was no "fault" in the original covenant with humans. The NT covenant was for the ruling class of those who will reign with Christ. Whatever punishment Adam and Eve garnered in the GoE still stands.
But the Bible states that there was a fault in the original covenant.

I believe the Bible.
Please provide book, chapter and verse. Thank you.

.


Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament:
Hebrews 8:6-7 wrote:But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Book: Hebrews

Chapter: 8

Verses: 6-7
I see it this way......in the covenant with humans given to Adam, there was no provision for the anointed "holy ones" that would eventually rule with Christ, because at that time there was no need for Christ to come.

.
No.

The purpose of man is to eventually replace the angels who left their first estate (the earth) under the control of Satan and warred against God in Heaven.

One characteristic which these replacements must apparently have is immortality -- as the rebels which rebelled had immortality.

But why risk creating more immortal angelic beings and risk being stuck with more rebels forever?

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and obey God as a prerequisite to becoming spiritual beings which live forever.

So the covenant was designed to produce obedient replacements for the rebellious angels which failed in their assignment.

The fault in that first covenant should now be obvious!

HINT: How many humans had become heirs unto everlasting life prior to Jesus being born?
None. I said that the Adamic covenant did not include anointed ones because Jesus' sacrifice wasn't necessary at that time (before Adam rebelled).

.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #78

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:37 pm None. I said that the Adamic covenant did not include anointed ones because Jesus' sacrifice wasn't necessary at that time (before Adam rebelled).
Whatever.

The fault in the first covenant was that no one had ever qualified as an heir because every man ever born had sinned.

Jesus was the first and only person to become an heir under that covenant.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #79

Post by Eloi »

Adam and Eve died for their own disobedience. Jehovah God directly punished them with death, just as he had warned them. The rest of humanity dies because of them, NOT because of a direct condemnation from God. We were sold to sin and death by our first parents.

Adam and Eve were not in any covenant in which mankind has subsequently been involved. Those pacts came into being precisely because of their disobedience. They only had to be obedient, and they would have lived forever together with all their descendants. All that was required of them was to let God decide for them what they could eat.

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Re: The Atonement

Post #80

Post by myth-one.com »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:59 am Adam and Eve died for their own disobedience. Jehovah God directly punished them with death, just as he had warned them. The rest of humanity dies because of them, NOT because of a direct condemnation from God. We were sold to sin and death by our first parents.

Adam and Eve were not in any covenant in which mankind has subsequently been involved. Those pacts came into being precisely because of their disobedience. They only had to be obedient, and they would have lived forever together with all their descendants. All that was required of them was to let God decide for them what they could eat.
You're doing the same thing Adam & Eve did. You're blaming someone else for your sins.

They blamed each other and the serpent, and you're blaming them.

=============================

Adam & Eve were created, given dominion over the earth, commanded to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and informed as to the consequences if they did so.

That's at least an understanding or agreement -- if not a covenant.

It has "the wages of sin is death" written all over it!

=============================

By living a sinless human life, Jesus proved that "We were sold to sin and death by our first parents" is a false statement!

We make our own choices. We can chose to sin or not to sin. And we suffer the consequences for our sins -- not for the sins of Adam & Eve.

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