The great religious scam

[Eloi]

All believers know very well that false religions exist, that is, they either have beliefs that are erroneous, or that their members and leaders allow / practice things that God condemns, or they stop doing things that God's Word says would be identifying of the true followers of Jesus Christ. Because of that, millions of people have decided that there is not a single religious community that is the true people of God united with whom they should also try to join.

We know that this is so because shortly after the death of the apostles, religious apostasy plunged Christians into very deep darkness, and it was almost impossible to distinguish what was true in religious matters or what should not be done if one was a Christian. , etc. Since then it was as if the few Christians that emerged were born in an exiled country, as when the Jews were exiled in Babylon, a country of many gods and where they had to be very strong to resist the pressure and control of the environment of that system where they had been taken into captivity.

Many years passed until modern times, when a little here and a little there, the Bible became better known, also history, etc. and those who had religious control of the world could not prevent people realizing the religious lies that sincere believers had been subjected to for thousands of years. For example, no longer all believed that they should kneel in front of images, or consider Mary as if she were "mother of God", and so on. This process was necessary for the truths to be clarified, and as Jesus said, the wheat would not be destroyed along with the weeds.

Let's talk a bit about that process in this topic. In that time of captivity in the form of exile, the believers were subjected to many erroneous teachings and religious practices that are still believed in the world, but how can they be discovered?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #10]

It looks like you didn't check out posts #3 and #6. Would you please do that and respond? Thanks.

Maybe it's really that I didn't respond the way... well, several here... want me to or think I should respond. I really dismissed those posts altogether, to be quite honest. That's certainly not to say that I don't believe there's not a whole lot of false teaching today or that there hasn't always been; one would be foolish to think otherwise. So yeah, there's nothing new under the sun. The apostles and even Jesus Himself warn of false teachers who were around in that day and would be around in the years to come. As for us, I'll just say too that a lot of false teaching started in the West during the Enlightenment and is still being perpetuated today.

Grace and peace to you.

I'm not looking for you to respond "the way I want you to respond." I would've liked to have your thoughts on the points being brought out, brought out with scriptural backing. If there was a real mess-up in understanding, then your pointed and scripture-backed remarks would be interesting.

[Eloi]

The only thing to do today is to return to the source of divine knowledge that we have: the written Word of Him

But who decides what constitutes "the written Word of Him"?

Many of the texts being quoted in this thread, including Revelation, 2 Peter, and the Pastorals, were not universally accepted as authoritative in the early Christian community. And there were many other texts that were ultimately excluded from the New Testament cannon too.

And so, if the early Christian community quickly fell into apostasy, to the point of becoming "unrecognizable," as several here are claiming, why are you all quoting from the books (and only those books) that were chosen by that supposedly apostate Church? Why do you submit to their New Testament canon?

In this subforum, the 66 known books of the Bible are accepted as inspired canon, as the written word of God.

If you want to open a topic on the biblical canon, I suppose you have enough space to do so on other part of the forum. If I have time I will later explain to you there why we know these are the pre-Christian and Christian canons.

[tam]

Peace to you,

So, if the consensus of the Church leadership in 325 was that the Son is uncreated and of one being with the Father -- which you disagree with -- then would you agree that it is reasonable to not accept (or at least be severely skeptical of) the consensus of the Church leadership after that?

Absolutely BUT the yardstick is not the date or even of our personal view but whether something agrees with the written word. Its logical God knew that he would have to record, have compiled and preserve the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the first century disciples in order that individuals of later eras know what is (religious) truth and what is not.

The sad irony here is that the WTS/JW religion teaches something different than what Christ and the apostles taught (and different than what is written). Christ never taught that only some could eat and drink (the bread and wine that mean His flesh and blood). Christ never taught that Christians have two different hopes (a heavenly hope OR an earthly hope). Neither did the twelve apostles or Paul teach these things. A religion has read this INTO the text (much as other religions read their doctrines - such as eternal torment in hell - into the text.)


But those teachings do not pass the test that you claim to accept, of how to know what is religious truth or not, because here we are, eras later, and individuals have indeed accepted teachings that Christ did not teach, nor the apostles, even in what is written:

"Its logical God knew he would have to record, have compiled and preserve the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the first century disciples in order that individuals of later eras know what is (religious) truth and what is not."

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

So, if the consensus of the Church leadership in 325 was that the Son is uncreated and of one being with the Father -- which you disagree with -- then would you agree that it is reasonable to not accept (or at least be severely skeptical of) the consensus of the Church leadership after that?

Absolutely BUT the yardstick is not the date or even of our personal view but whether something agrees with the written word. Its logical God knew that he would have to record, have compiled and preserve the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the first century disciples in order that individuals of later eras know what is (religious) truth and what is not.

The sad irony here is that the WTS/JW religion teaches something different than what Christ and the apostles taught (and different than what is written).

The WTS teaches EXACTLY what Jesus and the apostles taught. You apparently aren't as familiar with the scriptures as you purport to be. We have shared a great deal of scriptural reasoning to show you that there is a relatively limited number of people from the earth that are going to heaven to rule, and what they rule over is an unnumbered group that lives on the earth forever. Your view of that has been provided, but is so out there that it's hard to follow, and you haven't answered some questions posed to you. The WTS follows the Bible scrupulously, unlike any other religion.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

So, if the consensus of the Church leadership in 325 was that the Son is uncreated and of one being with the Father -- which you disagree with -- then would you agree that it is reasonable to not accept (or at least be severely skeptical of) the consensus of the Church leadership after that?

Absolutely BUT the yardstick is not the date or even of our personal view but whether something agrees with the written word. Its logical God knew that he would have to record, have compiled and preserve the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the first century disciples in order that individuals of later eras know what is (religious) truth and what is not.

The sad irony here is that the WTS/JW religion teaches something different than what Christ and the apostles taught (and different than what is written).

The WTS teaches EXACTLY what Jesus and the apostles taught.

If that were true, shouldn't you be able to show it in what is written, where Christ and the apostles teach EXACTLY that only some Christians can partake of the bread and wine/blood and body of Christ... or that there are two different hopes for Christians (earthly and heavenly)? Your own religion never taught these things at the start, so I don't know how you could possibly claim that this is what Christ, the apostles, and/or the bible teach EXACTLY.

How is it not just an interpretation, a reading into the text? How is that different than what any other religion does, truly? Especially when it contradicts Christ who said that ANYONE may eat, and UNLESS one eats His flesh and drinks His blood, one has no life in them. I am going to listen to Christ - since He (not a group of men, not a religion) is the Truth, and the One to whom God told us to listen; and the One to whom we must come; and the One who has the words of eternal life.

You apparently aren't as familiar with the scriptures as you purport to be. We have shared a great deal of scriptural reasoning to show you that there is a relatively limited number of people from the earth that are going to heaven to rule, and what they rule over is an unnumbered group that lives on the earth forever.

You have shared the interpretation from your religion, and anyone can do that (interpret something into the text), any religion can do that... and many do exactly that. But if the claim is that the scriptures were written so that people would have something to test - to know what Christ and the apostles taught - then this teaching of the WTS/JW religion must fail. Because this is not what Christ and the apostles taught.

So this doesn't seem to even pass your own test. If a person or a religion can override what Christ and the apostles taught with an interpretation... then what is the point of claiming that the scriptures were written so people would be able to test and know what is true, according to Christ and the apostles?

Your view of that has been provided, but is so out there that it's hard to follow, and you haven't answered some questions posed to you.

What questions? If I have missed something, I did not do it on purpose.

Not that it matters. Even if my understanding was wrong, it would not make your religion's teaching correct. The religion would still be teaching something that neither Christ nor the Apostles taught. The teaching still would contradict what Christ said about anyone being able to eat, and that unless one eats and drinks His flesh and His blood, then one has no life in them.

That is what Christ taught.

If someone is teaching something other than that, then they are not teaching what Christ taught, what the apostles taught.

The WTS follows the Bible scrupulously, unlike any other religion.

That is the claim. That is one of the reasons I accepted a bible study with the dear ladies who came to my door so many years ago. It just has not turned out to be true (see reasons above, as one example).

Even so, it is not the bible that God told us to listen to: it is Christ.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[historia]

[Replying to Eloi in post #33]

You can do so here.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tam in post #36]

I never got an answer when I asked you how can unrighteous people live on the earth after the Millennial Reign when the Scriptures say that "the righteous shall inherit the earth and live on it forever?" (Psalm 37:9-11 and 29)

[tam]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #38]

Peace to you owh,

I don't recall ever claiming that unrighteous people can live on the earth after the Millennial Reign. Unless you meant 'during'? Because I think we both know that by the end of the thousand years, there are unrighteous people living on the earth. How else could Satan (after his release) mislead 'gog and magog' to ride out across the breadth of the earth and attack the camp, the people God loves - if there were no unrighteous people living on the earth to ride out across the breadth of the earth?

They were not invited INTO the Kingdom - though. They are OUTSIDE the Kingdom (in the outer darkness, since Christ - the Light - is IN the Kingdom).


Of course, fire comes down from heaven and devours them at the end of the thousand years. Then the resurrection of the dead occurs, some being resurrected to life and some being resurrected to judgment and the second death.

**

That being said, this point remains from my previous post:

Not that it matters. Even if my understanding was wrong, it would not make your religion's teaching correct. The religion would still be teaching something that neither Christ nor the Apostles taught. The teaching still would contradict what Christ said about anyone being able to eat, and that unless one eats and drinks His flesh and His blood, then one has no life in them.

That is what Christ taught.

If someone is teaching something other than that, then they are not teaching what Christ taught, what the apostles taught.

Peace again to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #38]

Peace to you owh,

I don't recall ever claiming that unrighteous people can live on the earth after the Millennial Reign. Unless you meant 'during'? Because I think we both know that by the end of the thousand years, there are unrighteous people living on the earth. How else could Satan (after his release) mislead 'gog and magog' to ride out across the breadth of the earth and attack the camp, the people God loves - if there were no unrighteous people living on the earth to ride out across the breadth of the earth?

They were not invited INTO the Kingdom - though. They are OUTSIDE the Kingdom (in the outer darkness, since Christ - the Light - is IN the Kingdom).


Of course, fire comes down from heaven and devours them at the end of the thousand years. Then the resurrection of the dead occurs, some being resurrected to life and some being resurrected to judgment and the second death.

**

That being said, this point remains from my previous post:

Not that it matters. Even if my understanding was wrong, it would not make your religion's teaching correct. The religion would still be teaching something that neither Christ nor the Apostles taught. The teaching still would contradict what Christ said about anyone being able to eat, and that unless one eats and drinks His flesh and His blood, then one has no life in them.

That is what Christ taught.

If someone is teaching something other than that, then they are not teaching what Christ taught, what the apostles taught.

Peace again to you.

Well, we agree that unrighteous folks will be included in the great crowd of "other sheep" that enter into the paradise after Armageddon. If they respond to the teaching of the truth during the Thousand Year Reign, they will be in line for everlasting life, having become righteous

We disagree on the general Resurrection.....It will take place DURING the Thousand Year Reign, so that those people can learn the truth also (the ones that never knew the truth in their lifetimes). I don't know what good it would do to raise them up AFTER the Thousand Years. All evil will be done away with right when the 1,000 yrs. are done. Some of the resurrected ones will undoubtedly be wicked, so what happens then, now that the wicked have already been destroyed at Armageddon and also after the 1,000 years, with Satan and his demons? Suddenly we have some wicked ones in Paradise. They missed the bus, so to speak, to learn anything about God and Christ and to be judged according to their acceptance or rejection of the truth.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #38]

Peace to you owh,

I don't recall ever claiming that unrighteous people can live on the earth after the Millennial Reign. Unless you meant 'during'? Because I think we both know that by the end of the thousand years, there are unrighteous people living on the earth. How else could Satan (after his release) mislead 'gog and magog' to ride out across the breadth of the earth and attack the camp, the people God loves - if there were no unrighteous people living on the earth to ride out across the breadth of the earth?

They were not invited INTO the Kingdom - though. They are OUTSIDE the Kingdom (in the outer darkness, since Christ - the Light - is IN the Kingdom).


Of course, fire comes down from heaven and devours them at the end of the thousand years. Then the resurrection of the dead occurs, some being resurrected to life and some being resurrected to judgment and the second death.

**

That being said, this point remains from my previous post:

Not that it matters. Even if my understanding was wrong, it would not make your religion's teaching correct. The religion would still be teaching something that neither Christ nor the Apostles taught. The teaching still would contradict what Christ said about anyone being able to eat, and that unless one eats and drinks His flesh and His blood, then one has no life in them.

That is what Christ taught.

If someone is teaching something other than that, then they are not teaching what Christ taught, what the apostles taught.

Peace again to you.

Well, we agree that unrighteous folks will be included in the great crowd of "other sheep" that enter into the paradise after Armageddon.

We agree that such folks will be on the earth, at least.

In the parable of the sheep and the goats though, the goats aren't invited into the Kingdom (or Paradise).

But we do agree that there will be unrighteous on the earth during that time (the thousand years).

We disagree on the general Resurrection.....It will take place DURING the Thousand Year Reign, so that those people can learn the truth also (the ones that never knew the truth in their lifetimes). I don't know what good it would do to raise them up AFTER the Thousand Years.

Because the resurrection of the dead (some to life and some to judgment and the second death) is not about whether or not someone knew the Truth (who is Christ). It is about their deeds (same as with the sheep and the goats, in the parable of the sheep and the goats). We can see that some will be declared righteous because as Paul said, they do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (Romans 2; 1Peter 4:8)... and again, whatever one does for even a least one of Christ's brothers (knowingly or not), one does for Him.

All evil will be done away with right when the 1,000 yrs. are done. Some of the resurrected ones will undoubtedly be wicked, so what happens then, now that the wicked have already been destroyed at Armageddon and also after the 1,000 years, with Satan and his demons? Suddenly we have some wicked ones in Paradise.

No, not at all. They are resurrected either to life (their names written in the lamb's book of life), or to judgment and the second death. But it is based upon their deeds as committed during their lifetime.

They missed the bus, so to speak, to learn anything about God and Christ and to be judged according to their acceptance or rejection of the truth.

But acceptance or rejection of the truth is not the condition upon which they are judged. They are judged according to their deeds:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.


**

Some people act from love NATURALLY, even if they are not Christian, even if they did not believe in or know Christ. Such ones may be declared righteous (as Paul states), and be blessed by God (such as the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable).

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares.

And again, whatever one does for even a least one of Christ's brothers, one has done for Him (parable of sheep and goats).

And of course, God may have mercy upon whomever He chooses. Christ even says that the merciful will be shown mercy.



Peace again to you, and to your household,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy