Question for Debate: What is the spiritual fate of the Pleaser described below?
Some person has no idea what is spiritually true and isn't. He has no idea which god or gods are real and which are not. So he lays out every commandment of every religion in front of him and only discards ones he absolutely cannot follow because it stops him from following too many other ones. Now it just so happens that in doing this, he has lived his life within the bounds of righteousness according to your religion, except for one thing, the First Commandment... perhaps. Now, he never knew what gods were real, so when asked if he had any other gods but God, and when he answered honestly, he said no, he hadn't, because he wasn't sure any of them existed. He had no way to know. So he says, he didn't. But he didn't have God either. In order to obey every moral edict he possibly could, he didn't affirmatively believe any of it, he just followed every law. When asked if he accepts Jesus, he says yes, I always accepted that if Jesus was real and died on the cross to pay for my sins I ought to accept him, I just didn't know if he did or not.
The Fate of the Pleaser
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- Purple Knight
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #3First no human can be another's judge when it comes to one's eternal life. That lands squarely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. But since I know you like answers, I can give some Bible answers.
Not to quote a line from Indiana Jones but, did this person do all of this for God's glory or for his?
Or in other words to just save his own skin. "But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life." - Job 2:4
Everything would include giving him self over to any commandments or any religion of just about any type to try and save his own life. If this is the mentality of the person then that person is saying Satan is right.
Note what Jehovah said about Job though, "He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad." Job 2:3. God didn't start listing all of the laws and commandments Job was following. But He did say that he was a man of integrity, that he had a deep respect for God and turned away from what Jehovah calls bad. A person that is just blindly following laws has no integrity. A person that doesn't search for God can't respect Him. A person that will follow laws blindly might not be shunning what is bad in God's eyes.
Not to quote a line from Indiana Jones but, did this person do all of this for God's glory or for his?
Or in other words to just save his own skin. "But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life." - Job 2:4
Everything would include giving him self over to any commandments or any religion of just about any type to try and save his own life. If this is the mentality of the person then that person is saying Satan is right.
Note what Jehovah said about Job though, "He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad." Job 2:3. God didn't start listing all of the laws and commandments Job was following. But He did say that he was a man of integrity, that he had a deep respect for God and turned away from what Jehovah calls bad. A person that is just blindly following laws has no integrity. A person that doesn't search for God can't respect Him. A person that will follow laws blindly might not be shunning what is bad in God's eyes.
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #4[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
Sounds like he was really searching, and his heart was good. If there is good in him, Jehovah will see to it that he learns the truth, in this system of things, or the next.
Sounds like he was really searching, and his heart was good. If there is good in him, Jehovah will see to it that he learns the truth, in this system of things, or the next.
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #5I think everyone has something, or someone as God. For some it may be fear that rules them and for some it might be love, but everyone has something as their most high that they serve with their actions and words.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:08 pm ...he has lived his life within the bounds of righteousness according to your religion, except for one thing, the First Commandment... perhaps. Now, he never knew what gods were real, so when asked if he had any other gods but God, and when he answered honestly, he said no, he hadn't, because he wasn't sure any of them existed. He had no way to know. So he says, he didn't. But he didn't have God either.....
…God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16
If person would really obey Bible God’s commandments, I think he would then also keep the first commandment by keeping all the others. But, I don’t think it would necessarily mean that he is righteous. I think it depends on why did he obey the commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3
But, generally righteous person is like this:
…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
And if person is truly righteous, he gets eternal life:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #6Because he wasn't sure what was right and what was wrong, so one day he sat down with every moral edict ever thought of and decided to follow as many of them as possible, only throwing out ones that, if followed, prevented him from following too many other ones. He didn't want to get into Heaven but he did want to do what was right. He just had no idea what that was.
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #7When throwing out certain edits, is the number of contradictions a good measurement to make sure one is follow all of the right edicts? This person wants to do what is right according to who? According to who's morals? Why does this person want to do the right thing?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:28 pmBecause he wasn't sure what was right and what was wrong, so one day he sat down with every moral edict ever thought of and decided to follow as many of them as possible, only throwing out ones that, if followed, prevented him from following too many other ones. He didn't want to get into Heaven but he did want to do what was right. He just had no idea what that was.
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #8If so, I wouldn’t call the person righteous, because he doesn’t understand what is good and right and he does the things with not good reason.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:28 pm ...Because he wasn't sure what was right and what was wrong,...
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #9Whoever is correct about right and wrong in the first place. For the purposes of the scenario that's your god. Your god has it all correct. This person doesn't know that, though, so he simply collects all moral edicts and only discards those he has to, following all he possibly can.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:46 amThis person wants to do what is right according to who? According to who's morals?
Because it's right. No other reason.
This is exactly the answer I was looking for. And I agree with it. It's horrid, but I absolutely agree.1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:55 pmIf so, I wouldn’t call the person righteous, because he doesn’t understand what is good and right and he does the things with not good reason.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:28 pm ...Because he wasn't sure what was right and what was wrong,...
Someone without innate knowledge of right and wrong can never become good. Everything I have ever observed about good and evil confirm this. It's innate and can't be changed. Good people will always have righteous motivation, so any act is allowed. Evil people will never have righteous motivation so no act is allowed.
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #10How is it reasonable or just that a person who does not have innate knowledge of good and bad can never become good? "Good" is a relative thing. If someone doesn't know good innately and he listens to God, he can become as good as it is possible in this system of things. His faith and actions are counted to him as righteousness. (See Romans 4:3)Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:47 pmWhoever is correct about right and wrong in the first place. For the purposes of the scenario that's your god. Your god has it all correct. This person doesn't know that, though, so he simply collects all moral edicts and only discards those he has to, following all he possibly can.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:46 amThis person wants to do what is right according to who? According to who's morals?
Because it's right. No other reason.
This is exactly the answer I was looking for. And I agree with it. It's horrid, but I absolutely agree.1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:55 pmIf so, I wouldn’t call the person righteous, because he doesn’t understand what is good and right and he does the things with not good reason.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:28 pm ...Because he wasn't sure what was right and what was wrong,...
Someone without innate knowledge of right and wrong can never become good. Everything I have ever observed about good and evil confirm this. It's innate and can't be changed. Good people will always have righteous motivation, so any act is allowed. Evil people will never have righteous motivation so no act is allowed.