Question for Debate: What is the spiritual fate of the Pleaser described below?
Some person has no idea what is spiritually true and isn't. He has no idea which god or gods are real and which are not. So he lays out every commandment of every religion in front of him and only discards ones he absolutely cannot follow because it stops him from following too many other ones. Now it just so happens that in doing this, he has lived his life within the bounds of righteousness according to your religion, except for one thing, the First Commandment... perhaps. Now, he never knew what gods were real, so when asked if he had any other gods but God, and when he answered honestly, he said no, he hadn't, because he wasn't sure any of them existed. He had no way to know. So he says, he didn't. But he didn't have God either. In order to obey every moral edict he possibly could, he didn't affirmatively believe any of it, he just followed every law. When asked if he accepts Jesus, he says yes, I always accepted that if Jesus was real and died on the cross to pay for my sins I ought to accept him, I just didn't know if he did or not.
The Fate of the Pleaser
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #21Will it still count for him if he listens to Lucifer and picks Lucifer instead of God?onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:38 pmHow is it reasonable or just that a person who does not have innate knowledge of good and bad can never become good? "Good" is a relative thing. If someone doesn't know good innately and he listens to God, he can become as good as it is possible in this system of things. His faith and actions are counted to him as righteousness. (See Romans 4:3)
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #22Then it sounds like to me that person has a future. I think there could be many people like this when the resurrection happens under the rule of Jesus. Millions and millions died never knowing who Jehovah is, who Jesus is or what it says in the Bible. They might have wanted to do what was right but didn't get the chance to know what that is. There is a massive education work coming.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:47 pmOf course, if God can prove that God's morality is correct. His immediate question is, okay, so you're a very powerful mega-entity. How do I know you are righteous and none of these other things are that contradict what you say? Then, if God proves God's way is right, he does it. All he wants to do is what is right and moral.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:53 amBy trying to do the right thing God reveals Himself to this person, would this person then be open to doing the right thing for God?
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #23Maybe, I don’t believe that person can't change, but in this case, I think the change can arose from God, God can cause person to get the right understanding.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:47 pm ... however much he apparently changes, can never divorce himself from the fact that this change arose out of his old self, and his old, evil motivations. So, no matter how apparently good he becomes, it's never for a good reason...
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #24I see you have not replied to my post. So I collect information where people get the truth. Please, tell me, where do you get truth?2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:06 pmDo you agree that the whole Bible, including the Christian Greek Scriptures are part of God's Word? Also do you accept the rules of this forum that the whole Bible including the Greek Scriptures are to be considered authoritative and have the final say for this debate? To wit, "Criticism of sources, authorship, or redaction with the intent to discredit the authority of the canon are more appropriate for the Christianity and Apologetics subforum."HarlanGeorge wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:00 pm
Let's gain some common footing so as to keep this debate on this theocidy moving forward fairly.
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #25No of course not. Faith IN GOD (Jehovah) is counted to anyone as righteousness.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:08 pmWill it still count for him if he listens to Lucifer and picks Lucifer instead of God?onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:38 pmHow is it reasonable or just that a person who does not have innate knowledge of good and bad can never become good? "Good" is a relative thing. If someone doesn't know good innately and he listens to God, he can become as good as it is possible in this system of things. His faith and actions are counted to him as righteousness. (See Romans 4:3)
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #26So how would someone know to pick God over Lucifer if they didn't know good from evil to begin with?onewithhim wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:13 pmNo of course not. Faith IN GOD (Jehovah) is counted to anyone as righteousness.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:08 pmWill it still count for him if he listens to Lucifer and picks Lucifer instead of God?onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:38 pmHow is it reasonable or just that a person who does not have innate knowledge of good and bad can never become good? "Good" is a relative thing. If someone doesn't know good innately and he listens to God, he can become as good as it is possible in this system of things. His faith and actions are counted to him as righteousness. (See Romans 4:3)
Do they have to seek God out, or will God just reach down and fix evil people at random?1213 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:21 pmMaybe, I don’t believe that person can't change, but in this case, I think the change can arose from God, God can cause person to get the right understanding.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:47 pm ... however much he apparently changes, can never divorce himself from the fact that this change arose out of his old self, and his old, evil motivations. So, no matter how apparently good he becomes, it's never for a good reason...
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #27I believe God gives the chance for everyone to be fixed.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:20 pm ...
Do they have to seek God out, or will God just reach down and fix evil people at random?
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #28So does the person have to be seeking it or not?1213 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:10 pmI believe God gives the chance for everyone to be fixed.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:20 pm ...
Do they have to seek God out, or will God just reach down and fix evil people at random?
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #29I don’t think it is absolutely necessary. I believe it is more the opposite, people seek other options to not believe what they know to be true.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:46 pmSo does the person have to be seeking it or not?1213 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:10 pmI believe God gives the chance for everyone to be fixed.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:20 pm ...
Do they have to seek God out, or will God just reach down and fix evil people at random?
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Re: The Fate of the Pleaser
Post #30They will eventually know. If people don't have the knowledge of the truth in this system of things, they will get taught in the coming system of things, what is called the Millennial Reign of Christ. People will be judged as to what they do with their knowledge of the truth. (Adam deliberately rebelled against Jehovah, having known the truth. Any other person also must knowingly rebel against Jehovah in order to be dismissed from life.)Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:20 pmSo how would someone know to pick God over Lucifer if they didn't know good from evil to begin with?onewithhim wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:13 pmNo of course not. Faith IN GOD (Jehovah) is counted to anyone as righteousness.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:08 pmWill it still count for him if he listens to Lucifer and picks Lucifer instead of God?onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:38 pmHow is it reasonable or just that a person who does not have innate knowledge of good and bad can never become good? "Good" is a relative thing. If someone doesn't know good innately and he listens to God, he can become as good as it is possible in this system of things. His faith and actions are counted to him as righteousness. (See Romans 4:3)