Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

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Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #1

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

I think it is important all Christians ask ourselves that question. Lets get right into it.

My former view: The “Passover is for the Jews, but I am a Christian”. My view was, the Passover was just a Jewish thing, along with many of the other holy days/festivals of the old testament.

My view was also that the old testament is a rich source of great history pertaining to God and how he dealt with his chosen people. However, most of that stuff didn’t translate over to Christianity, which is the “new stuff”…the “new covenant” with Jesus Christ.

Well, that is what I used to think..however…

What had happened was: Over the past 3 years (on and off), I’ve been partaking in Bible studies with a particular Christian denomination. They called themselves World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG). I had never heard of them until recent, and if you aren’t familiar with them, they have a very unorthodox way of Bible interpretation and with that comes, of course, very “wacky” Biblical doctrines.

For example, their most infamous doctrine is perhaps the teaching that there is a “Mother” God, along with God the “Father”. Need I say more? (and that isn’t even the tip of the iceberg).

Another thing that stands out, is that they are somehow/someway able to translate a lot of Old Testament teachings over to the New Testament…and after studying with them, you will find yourself not being able to take almost anything literally in the Bible…because with them, they take even basic Biblical teachings in some symbolic or metaphorical way.

Now, I said all of that to say this; me and a particular fellow (lets call him Ollie) from the WMSCOG have been studying off and on for the past 3 years. We’ve had long, mentally DRAINING discussions…our discussions include questions like..

1. Is Ahn Sahng-hong (their church founder) Jesus Christ? It is what they believe.

2. Is baptism required for salvation? It is what they believe.

3. Is there a “Mother” God? It is what they believe.

4. Is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the same person? It is what they believe.

5. Is the commemoration/celebration of the Passover a requirement for salvation? It is what they believe.

That being said, I found myself disagreeing with all 5 of those. But what I can’t deny is, the fact that on most of the conversations that me and Ollie have had, Ollie has made compelling Biblical cases for almost all of those topics.

I’ve found myself admitting (even to him), that “even though I disagree with you, I can see where you are coming from”.

Now, this thread is being created based on something that he was able to convince me of, which is that Christians should celebrate the Passover…now, is the Passover a requirement for salvation? I have mixed views on this, depending on the day.

However, I am convinced that the Passover is a commandment by God, not just to the Jews, but for Christians as well.

Ollie was able to convince me by taking old testament scriptures, and harmonizing them with new testament verses…and making it all one cohesive unit.

After putting up so much resistance to his case, I finally had to bow down to the truth of the matter, in the affirmative.

Some of you may already be familiar with his case, but I certainly was not. Apparently, I need to read my Bible more. I mean, I thought I knew my Bible..but there are levels to this.

So, what was his case? See below…
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #41

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:08 pm
DID PAUL ENCOURAGE CHRISTIANS TO KEEP THE JEWISH PASSOVER ?

Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. 8 So, then, let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.[/color]

Paul was not instructing Christians to observe the Jewish Passover, he was using the literal feast as a METAPHOR for the Christian calling.

Speaking of the need to be morally clean we note Paul spoke of Christians themselves being an new batch [of bread] "free from ferment". He didn't say to use literal bread he said to use "the bread of sincerity and truth". Literal bread is made out wheat or some other kind of grain, not feelings. And human bodies are not literally fermented with yeast /leaven. Paul also refers to Christ as a lamb - but Christ was not a baby sheep he was a human. Evidently Paul was pointing to the true significance of the Passover lamb, using it as a picture of the reality of Christ's sacrifice.

So when Paul urges Christians to "keep the festival" he was urging Christians to use their entire life course in a way that reflects their relationship with God.
Sure, you can think that. The problem is; it lies in conflict with the Scriptures. I will reiterate what I said in the OP, since you obviously didn't read it (respectfully).

Jesus said that he is the bread of life that came down from heaven, and anyone who eats of this bread will not die and live forever.

Read carefully..John 6..

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Do you see that? "This bread is my flesh...".

Now, take those verses, and compare it to..


Matt 26

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Do you see how it all just ties together?

Now certainly, in the John verses, you may be tempted to say "Jesus was talking figuratively". But that won't fly, since he has the disciples eating actual literal bread during the Last Supper.

Don't fight it, JW. Just accept it, accept this revelation that God has revealed to you, through me!!

:D :D :D

Oh, and as far as Paul is concerned, sure, the bread of sincerity and truth will only make sense if it was synonymous with Jesus (Jesus said that it is synonymous with his flesh)...if the bread is Jesus' flesh, then the bread can be considered "sincere and truth", since Jesus is/was sincere, and truth.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #42

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:24 pm Why is there no mention of eating a roasted lamb (which was a required part of the Passover)?
Jesus is/was the lamb. (John 1:29)

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:24 pm NOTE: Wine was not a stipulation in the Passover instructions. It beccame a tradition by Jesus day but was not a scriptural requirement.
I know, and the point is; Jesus was setting a new way for the Passover to be kept. Because after all, he did call the cup of wine the blood of the "new" covenant, didn't he? (Matt 26:28).

The point; Do it this way now.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #43

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:35 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 pm
The Passover was an everlasting ordinance when it was first implemented (Ex 12:17)
EXODUS 12:17 NWT

You must keep the Festival of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day, I will bring your multitudes out of the land of Egypt. And you must keep this day throughout your generations as a lasting statute


Various other translations : https://biblehub.com/exodus/12-17.htm


source: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

CONCLUSION: A close examination of Exodus 12:17 reveals that God intended the PASSOVER to remain in force a "long time" but not necessarily forever.


JW
Oh, I can certainly understand where you are coming from, and I am all for getting to the bottom of the meaning of words...that being said, knowing the intent and purpose of the Passover...when would have been a good time to stop commemorating the Passover?

You say it did not necessarily mean "forever". Ok, so when would one stop commemorating God's deliverance from slavery or man's bondage to sin (Jesus' resurrection)?

When is a good time to stop it? You tell me.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #44

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am No. ONE of the reasons I reject the Biblical view of a god is because it is often contradictory and clearly the words of men.
Thanks for giving your opinion on the matter. I will give you mines; the Bible is the inspired word of the living God.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am A god writing to us would be precise and clear and if the god thought there might be room for difficulties, would have imbued us with the ability to read it clearly.
So, not only dont you believe in God, but you are claiming to know the mind of God, if he did exist?

Gotcha. :approve:
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am I understand what the words of the Bible are saying when it comes to laws. Clearly poems and other allegorical content are open for subjective opinion. It is apologists who often spend copious amounts of energy twisting, interpreting, and tap dancing what's often plainly written in order to come up with a harmonious theology. The thousands of Christian denominations prove this. This very OP proves this.
You say that, yet here you are spending copious amounts of energy debating specifics about a God/religion that you don't even believe in.

At least believers have an excuse, we believe in the stuff so we have an invested interest in it...you, however, have no invested interest in it...yet, here you are, debating away.

SMH.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am God demanded his people keep the Sabbath. Which day is that for Jews? Which day is that for Christians? Has God changed His mind at some point?
If we should, or shouldn't? What does it matter to you? These are in house discussions for believers...outsiders should not concern themselves with subjects pertaining to believers.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am In the "anything is possible" sense, sure. Christianity could be true. The trouble is, find two Christians who can tell you exactly what Christianity actually means. Most of them disagree on various things so saying "Christianity might be true" could also mean that every single Christian on earth right now could be wrong as NONE of them are actual "Christians" in the sense that they are following all the correct laws of the god of the Bible. At this point, saying that becomes meaningless.
I don't know anyone who I agree with 100% on everything, do you?

That, followed by the fact that even in the Bible, there were divisions among the church.

Heck, even during Jesus' time, there was the Pharisees and the Sadducees, two different sects of Jews with different interpretations of the law.

If it can happen during Jesus' time, it can happen in any time.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Your own OP defeats your argument. If it was clear, why are you having this discussion? This is a pretty basic rule in the Bible. Talk to a practicing Jew if the Mosaic law is unclear.
Reading comprehension. The scripture that I provided wasn't about the Mosaic law, but rather, that God created the universe, which is something that every person who follows Judeo-Christianity believes in.

We agree on that much, don't we? :D
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Great, please list out all the things that are clear then (in broad categories is fine). i.e. are the laws of God clear? This very OP seems to remove that category, one of the most important one would think.
I think that requires a separate thread.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am This is just typical "Christian-speak". God can NEVER be the problem. God created the universe and everything in it, created us, created the rules, created our capacity for understanding, and on it goes. Yet it's our fault if we can't clearly understand a few basic rules to live by. Right.
That is not how the average, faith-driven, dedicated Christian think. That is, however, how a Christian defector may think, which may explain why you think that way, and I don't.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Most? Shouldn't it be all? Why would you knowingly break God's law? I understand the occasional slip if your wife buys you the wrong underwear, but this answer is pretty telling. I also only gave one common example. Going through the entire Bible and sorting out all of God's law and then following it shouldn't be an exercise is relentless praying, Bible studies, and wondering if you are missing anything. It should be a simple task unless God is trying to trip us up.
First off, when I said "most", I was speaking along the lines of me not being aware of certain laws, such as the "dont wear clothes of different material". I was not aware of that one, so if I follow the other ones, but not that one...thus "most".

Second, that is exactly my original point; I was not aware of it..meaning if I was more in to my Bible, perhaps I would have known.

Third, we do know that there are some laws that were changed..it is just a matter of finding out which ones were/weren't, which ultimately goes back to Bible studies.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am If I could sort out the actual Jesus from the obvious religious propaganda built around his name, I might be able to consider that. I certainly tried in the past for quite some time. When it became clear to me I was attempting to chase after the words of men, I ejected.
I'd like for you to expound on that, start a thread. I'd like to hear more about this religious propaganda you mention.

Because just the fact that you allowed what you call propaganda to influence your path, goes to show that your mind was not in the game as it should have been.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am What you just said had nothing to do with my point. It sounds like pointless preaching. You did not address the trauma to those that do the killing for God or those that witness the killing caused by God (angels wiping out every first born son).
LOL. Well, if God doesn't exist, then there is no killing for God or killing caused by God. So this is all a dead issue, anyway.

Since I don't believe in Santa Claus, I am not going around on "Santa Claus forums" talking about..

"Hey guys, lets talk about all of the joy and pleasure that Santa Claus brings to children every year on Christmas day!!"

Yet, here you are, an unbeliever, on here talking about trauma caused by a God that you don't even believe in.

SMH.

You talk about my "pointless preaching", well, I am talking about your "pointless critiques".
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Just because a child CAN squash a bug doesn't mean he SHOULD squash it if he can simply move it off his lawn chair and put it back on a plant. Just because God CAN kill and ask people to kill for Him, doesn't mean there aren't less traumatic solutions. When bloodthirsty men are allowed to define god, we see the result.
Ok, so bloodthirsty men made up the concept of God, and are speaking for him. End of story. Nothing more to be said. Right?
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am What?

That's ridiculous on so many levels. Using that level of logic, God should be torturing every single human in the most excruciating way possible from the moment they are born. Only then could they truly appreciate, to the maximum, the joy of death.
No, because every single person has experience some kind of trauma or negative experience in their life...whether God-provoked or not.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am It's no wonder I left Christianity with these horrible attempts at apologetics being used to sweep the atrocities of the Bible god under the carpet. It's par for the course and I know it's coming, but I cringe every time I see it. Makes me so happy I tossed the rose colored glasses in the trash.
Hey, if you were once a member of the Mafia (or any gang), and left the family because you don't like what you originally signed up for...then hey, this life just "ain't for you".
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am You're kidding right? What do you think my entire response has been so far?

In short, I would expect an actual god to be clear, concise, and not do clearly human acts. Problems should be solved in logical ways and achieve their goals in a clear manner. Humans should not be in a constant state of confusion about what they should be doing.
Your opinion is noted :approve:
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am After reading the entire Bible, the above fails on every level for the god described. An actual god may exist (and part of me actually hopes one does), but if it's the one as fully described in the Bible, I can't imagine how it would reconcile the contradictory, slaughter happy, war happy, often ridiculous solution using, character the Bible portrays. If I was standing in front of a god, I would almost feel the need to apologize for the ridiculous caricature that some humans decided to paint it with.
You will have your day in court, sir. :approve:
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #45

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:15 pm ... when would one stop commemorating God's deliverance from slavery ...?
Is this a reference to the Passover?


If so , I believe the obligation to Jews to observe Passover would be until the death of the "real" Pasover lamb, ie Jesus as the promised Messiah.


This is an important point for Christians because the liberation / redemption of the natural Jews from literal slavery in Egypt was merely a type or a prophetic picture of the liberaton from sin possible because of Jesus blood sacrifice.
To continue to observe the Passover after the Christ's sacrifice is like a woman kissing a picture of her husband after he returns from a war.

When the real thing arrives, continued attention to the picture ceases to be touching evidence of devotion and becomes a misguided insult.




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To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

BIBLICAL LAW, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ...THE PASSOVER
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #46

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:15 pm ... when would one stop commemorating man's bondage to sin (Jesus' resurrection)?
Is this a reference to the Lords evening meal?

(I ask because in the Jehovah's Witness view the "last supper" ie the passing of the bread and the wine is a commemoration of Jesus ransom sacrifce - not of man's bondage to sin or of Jesus' resurrection)

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:15 pm
When is a good time to stop it? You tell me.

I'll be happy to provide the answer to your question if you just clarify what you are asking about.



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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #47

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am A god writing to us would be precise and clear and if the god thought there might be room for difficulties, would have imbued us with the ability to read it clearly.
So, not only dont you believe in God, but you are claiming to know the mind of God, if he did exist?
No, I'm simply giving my logical opinion given the god in question seems to want us to know what to do.

Do you speak in riddles to children when trying to get them to do something? Do you tell them to do things one way and later on say "forget all that, I changed the rules"? My point is the evidence we have (the Bible and confused Christians) points to either a god that doesn't mind confusion where eternal lives are on the line or simply badly written material by men proclaiming they have written down the word of of a god. I know which one seems more likely to me.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am I understand what the words of the Bible are saying when it comes to laws. Clearly poems and other allegorical content are open for subjective opinion. It is apologists who often spend copious amounts of energy twisting, interpreting, and tap dancing what's often plainly written in order to come up with a harmonious theology. The thousands of Christian denominations prove this. This very OP proves this.
You say that, yet here you are spending copious amounts of energy debating specifics about a God/religion that you don't even believe in.

At least believers have an excuse, we believe in the stuff so we have an invested interest in it...you, however, have no invested interest in it...yet, here you are, debating away.

SMH.
You can shake your head all you like. It might even help. You have no clue what interest I have in debating these topics since you would rather presume than ask.

One of my main interests is that I, a former Christian, can understand both sides of the debate and offer readers that perspective. When we have apologists fear mongering people into trying to believe their religion, I think it's my duty to point out all the flaws in the apologists arguments. I sure wish I'd seen more of this before I wasted so much time/energy/money on being a Christian.

Perhaps I will help a reader to think more critically about their options. If not, it's still fun to debate.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am God demanded his people keep the Sabbath. Which day is that for Jews? Which day is that for Christians? Has God changed His mind at some point?
If we should, or shouldn't? What does it matter to you? These are in house discussions for believers...outsiders should not concern themselves with subjects pertaining to believers.
Nice dodge. See, it's quite enlightening when obvious flaws are found in apologist arguments. They avoid the tough questions, even though that one seemed pretty easy. I'm sure readers will learn something from that.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am In the "anything is possible" sense, sure. Christianity could be true. The trouble is, find two Christians who can tell you exactly what Christianity actually means. Most of them disagree on various things so saying "Christianity might be true" could also mean that every single Christian on earth right now could be wrong as NONE of them are actual "Christians" in the sense that they are following all the correct laws of the god of the Bible. At this point, saying that becomes meaningless.
I don't know anyone who I agree with 100% on everything, do you?

That, followed by the fact that even in the Bible, there were divisions among the church.

Heck, even during Jesus' time, there was the Pharisees and the Sadducees, two different sects of Jews with different interpretations of the law.

If it can happen during Jesus' time, it can happen in any time.
Thank you for piling on and further making my point. Even people who were a lot "closer to the action" were still confused about what this god really wants. Sounds like a major communication issue from God if you ask me. Seems pretty fishy if you think about and step back for a second.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Your own OP defeats your argument. If it was clear, why are you having this discussion? This is a pretty basic rule in the Bible. Talk to a practicing Jew if the Mosaic law is unclear.
Reading comprehension. The scripture that I provided wasn't about the Mosaic law, but rather, that God created the universe, which is something that every person who follows Judeo-Christianity believes in.

We agree on that much, don't we? :D
Reading comprehension indeed. You said "God did make it clear" when I asked you if God was able to do so. Now you are going on about the creation of the universe and no longer talking about the law of God. You know, the entire point of this OP.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Great, please list out all the things that are clear then (in broad categories is fine). i.e. are the laws of God clear? This very OP seems to remove that category, one of the most important one would think.
I think that requires a separate thread.
You seem to be dodging again. If you want a separate thread, fine. I would have thought it would be easy for you to list a few bullet points.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am This is just typical "Christian-speak". God can NEVER be the problem. God created the universe and everything in it, created us, created the rules, created our capacity for understanding, and on it goes. Yet it's our fault if we can't clearly understand a few basic rules to live by. Right.
That is not how the average, faith-driven, dedicated Christian think. That is, however, how a Christian defector may think, which may explain why you think that way, and I don't.
Not sure I understand. You are telling me on one hand it's not God's fault, but on the other that's not how Christians think? So Christians think it could be God's fault? You would be the first Christian I've met that blames God for messing things up.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Most? Shouldn't it be all? Why would you knowingly break God's law? I understand the occasional slip if your wife buys you the wrong underwear, but this answer is pretty telling. I also only gave one common example. Going through the entire Bible and sorting out all of God's law and then following it shouldn't be an exercise is relentless praying, Bible studies, and wondering if you are missing anything. It should be a simple task unless God is trying to trip us up.
First off, when I said "most", I was speaking along the lines of me not being aware of certain laws, such as the "dont wear clothes of different material". I was not aware of that one, so if I follow the other ones, but not that one...thus "most".
Ok, I'm perplexed. You claim to be a studious Christian and you haven't even read all the laws in the Bible? That would seem to be priority one no? I know for sure than many Christians have not actually read the entire Bible or studied it very much, but you have actually shocked me somewhat here. I simply assumed you have read them all, but now are in the process of trying to sort out which ones to follow. My bad.

Maybe I should point out some of the other ones before you go breaking more laws. You don't eat bacon do you?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm Second, that is exactly my original point; I was not aware of it..meaning if I was more in to my Bible, perhaps I would have known.

Third, we do know that there are some laws that were changed..it is just a matter of finding out which ones were/weren't, which ultimately goes back to Bible studies.
If some laws were changed, that would be suspicious. God needs people to do X to live 'correctly'. Then suddenly God changes his mind, was wrong, now needs people to do Y. Hmmm...

If you want some help, one common apologetic is that Mosaic law was only for Israel. Thus, if you are not a Jew, you can ignore the entire Mosaic law. This, however, creates a new pickle. Are you one of the 12 disciples that followed Jesus around and were directed to do various things? If not, you can toss those directives out too. By the time you find out all the things that definitely pertain to ALL humans (i.e. you), the list can be pretty small. Maybe even nonexistent depending on one's level of exactitude.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am If I could sort out the actual Jesus from the obvious religious propaganda built around his name, I might be able to consider that. I certainly tried in the past for quite some time. When it became clear to me I was attempting to chase after the words of men, I ejected.
I'd like for you to expound on that, start a thread. I'd like to hear more about this religious propaganda you mention.
Don't need a thread. Just read the gospels. Critically. Are they simple histories or are they promoting a religion?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm Because just the fact that you allowed what you call propaganda to influence your path, goes to show that your mind was not in the game as it should have been.
You mean because I later learned to critically ask questions and look beyond church teachings for the truth I was influenced by propaganda at first? Yes, sir. That's exactly what happened. I blindly trusted Christian friends, priests, and apologists. I read the Bible assuming it was true. I did not think critically. I was duped. I admit that. No question. Again, one of the reasons I'm here debating. When I found the flaws in my thinking, I think it's only fair to share my experience. Others may disagree, but at least I offer my perspective.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am What you just said had nothing to do with my point. It sounds like pointless preaching. You did not address the trauma to those that do the killing for God or those that witness the killing caused by God (angels wiping out every first born son).
LOL. Well, if God doesn't exist, then there is no killing for God or killing caused by God. So this is all a dead issue, anyway.
How is it a dead issue? People have stoned other people to death (a horrid way to die) because they followed the Bible. How is that a dead issue. Don't tell me you don't know about the stoning laws in the Bible either? If not, you need to stop doing "Bible studies" and just read the thing cover to cover. Yes, it's a long read. If you haven't done it yet, I highly recommend it.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm Since I don't believe in Santa Claus, I am not going around on "Santa Claus forums" talking about..

"Hey guys, lets talk about all of the joy and pleasure that Santa Claus brings to children every year on Christmas day!!"

Yet, here you are, an unbeliever, on here talking about trauma caused by a God that you don't even believe in.

SMH.
It's ironic, I just read the above and literally shook my head, saw your SMH and did a small LOL.

So you think belief in Santa Claus bringing toys to children is on the same level as telling people they better believe in Jesus or forever burn in hell? Or on the same level as asking humans to kill based on some often unclear rules?

I don't equate children learning the truth about Santa as on the same level of trauma as being asked to kill another human being, but clearly you seem to think there is a parallel here. Wow.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:08 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am Just because a child CAN squash a bug doesn't mean he SHOULD squash it if he can simply move it off his lawn chair and put it back on a plant. Just because God CAN kill and ask people to kill for Him, doesn't mean there aren't less traumatic solutions. When bloodthirsty men are allowed to define god, we see the result.
Ok, so bloodthirsty men made up the concept of God, and are speaking for him. End of story. Nothing more to be said. Right?
Pretty much. When that picture emerges, seems pointless following it. Many Christians never really see that side of their god or bother to question it though. I certainly didn't.

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #48

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm No, I'm simply giving my logical opinion given the god in question seems to want us to know what to do.
Again, if this God doesn't exist, then what this nonexistent God wants/doesn't want shouldn't matter to you.

Santa Claus' opinion on whether children are nice instead of naughty means nothing to me, since I don't believe he exists.

Catch my drift? :D
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Do you speak in riddles to children when trying to get them to do something?
Children, or full grown adults? I don't think Jesus was speaking to children when he was kicking out those parables. Do you?
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Do you tell them to do things one way and later on say "forget all that, I changed the rules"?
Sure. When I was young, the rule was to be in the house at a certain time (curfew). But as I got older, the rules changed. I got to stay out later.

Don't see how an amendment of a rule is a strike against the rule-giver...according to circumstances.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm My point is the evidence we have (the Bible and confused Christians) points to either a god that doesn't mind confusion where eternal lives are on the line or simply badly written material by men proclaiming they have written down the word of of a god. I know which one seems more likely to me.
Well, that is you, and your opinion.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm You can shake your head all you like. It might even help. You have no clue what interest I have in debating these topics since you would rather presume than ask.

One of my main interests is that I, a former Christian, can understand both sides of the debate and offer readers that perspective.
And here is my opinion; Christian theology should not concern folks that aren't Christian.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm When we have apologists fear mongering people into trying to believe their religion, I think it's my duty to point out all the flaws in the apologists arguments. I sure wish I'd seen more of this before I wasted so much time/energy/money on being a Christian.
Well, if you don't believe in the religion, there is nothing to fear. I don't believe in the boogeyman, so telling me that the boogeyman is under my bed or inside my closet does nothing to me.

I can't be afraid of something I don't believe exists.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Perhaps I will help a reader to think more critically about their options. If not, it's still fun to debate.
Hey, whatever rattles your chain. Go for it :approve:
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm
Nice dodge. See, it's quite enlightening when obvious flaws are found in apologist arguments. They avoid the tough questions, even though that one seemed pretty easy. I'm sure readers will learn something from that.
No one is dodging the questions. I am not a Muslim, so I don't concern myself with how many times one should pray throughout the day (just an example).

It doesn't concern me...so I will leave that to them.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Thank you for piling on and further making my point. Even people who were a lot "closer to the action" were still confused about what this god really wants. Sounds like a major communication issue from God if you ask me. Seems pretty fishy if you think about and step back for a second.
As the saying goes; "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you".

That pretty much sums it up.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Reading comprehension indeed. You said "God did make it clear" when I asked you if God was able to do so. Now you are going on about the creation of the universe and no longer talking about the law of God. You know, the entire point of this OP.
If I'm not mistaken, you weren't talking about the Mosaic Law at that point. If you were, I retract what I said.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm You seem to be dodging again. If you want a separate thread, fine. I would have thought it would be easy for you to list a few bullet points.
A few bullet points? You said ALL. We are already far removed from the OP as it is; thus, a separate thread was suggested.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Not sure I understand. You are telling me on one hand it's not God's fault, but on the other that's not how Christians think? So Christians think it could be God's fault? You would be the first Christian I've met that blames God for messing things up.
I never said nor implied that it is God's fault, in fact, I made it quite clear that it isn't God's fault, but man's misunderstandings. Did I not?
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Ok, I'm perplexed. You claim to be a studious Christian and you haven't even read all the laws in the Bible? That would seem to be priority one no? I know for sure than many Christians have not actually read the entire Bible or studied it very much, but you have actually shocked me somewhat here. I simply assumed you have read them all, but now are in the process of trying to sort out which ones to follow. My bad.
No, I have not read the entire Bible...nor am I familiar with all of laws and commandments that were given to the Israelites.

But even with that being said; I may be no expert, but I am far from a novice.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Maybe I should point out some of the other ones before you go breaking more laws. You don't eat bacon do you?
I do. Why do I? Because Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19).

This is an epic failure of a "gotcha" moment. LOL.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm If some laws were changed, that would be suspicious. God needs people to do X to live 'correctly'. Then suddenly God changes his mind, was wrong, now needs people to do Y. Hmmm...
Dude, you are reaching now. This has nothing to do with being wrong, but simply that God changes the way he deals with people over time as he sees fit.

And again, you seem to be putting a little extra pep in this fictional character and these fictional stories.

Just sayin.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm If you want some help, one common apologetic is that Mosaic law was only for Israel. Thus, if you are not a Jew, you can ignore the entire Mosaic law. This, however, creates a new pickle. Are you one of the 12 disciples that followed Jesus around and were directed to do various things? If not, you can toss those directives out too. By the time you find out all the things that definitely pertain to ALL humans (i.e. you), the list can be pretty small. Maybe even nonexistent depending on one's level of exactitude.
If you want some help, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Your very soul depends on it. Let the angels rejoice as you come to Christ.

That, my friend, is help.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm Don't need a thread. Just read the gospels. Critically. Are they simple histories or are they promoting a religion?
Both.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm You mean because I later learned to critically ask questions and look beyond church teachings for the truth I was influenced by propaganda at first? Yes, sir. That's exactly what happened. I blindly trusted Christian friends, priests, and apologists. I read the Bible assuming it was true. I did not think critically. I was duped. I admit that. No question. Again, one of the reasons I'm here debating. When I found the flaws in my thinking, I think it's only fair to share my experience. Others may disagree, but at least I offer my perspective.
*David Essex's voice* Rock on!! :approve:
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm
How is it a dead issue? People have stoned other people to death (a horrid way to die) because they followed the Bible. How is that a dead issue.
People kill others for many different reasons, "Because the Bible says so" is just one of many.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm
Don't tell me you don't know about the stoning laws in the Bible either? If not, you need to stop doing "Bible studies" and just read the thing cover to cover. Yes, it's a long read. If you haven't done it yet, I highly recommend it.
I highly recommend you accept Christ before your dying day.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm
It's ironic, I just read the above and literally shook my head, saw your SMH and did a small LOL.

So you think belief in Santa Claus bringing toys to children is on the same level as telling people they better believe in Jesus or forever burn in hell? Or on the same level as asking humans to kill based on some often unclear rules? I don't equate children learning the truth about Santa as on the same level of trauma as being asked to kill another human being, but clearly you seem to think there is a parallel here. Wow.
Um, my point was; I don't concern myself with stuff I don't believe in.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:08 pm
Pretty much. When that picture emerges, seems pointless following it. Many Christians never really see that side of their god or bother to question it though. I certainly didn't.
Then Christianity ain't for you, amigo.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #49

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:07 pm
Is this a reference to the Lords evening meal?

(I ask because in the Jehovah's Witness view the "last supper" ie the passing of the bread and the wine is a commemoration of Jesus ransom sacrifce - not of man's bondage to sin or of Jesus' resurrection) I'll be happy to provide the answer to your question if you just clarify what you are asking about.
My bad...I meant when do we stop commemorating man's freedom from bondage of sin.

Because after all, you stated that "lasting" did not mean forever lasting, implying that we may stop commemorating it if we so desired (I think that is what you meant).

If that is the case...

1. Why would we stop commemorating it?

2. When would we stop commemorating it?
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:34 pm If so , I believe the obligation to Jews to observe Passover would be until the death of the "real" Pasover lamb, ie Jesus as the promised Messiah.

This is an important point for Christians because the liberation / redemption of the natural Jews from literal slavery in Egypt was merely a type or a prophetic picture of the liberaton from sin possible because of Jesus blood sacrifice.

To continue to observe the Passover after the Christ's sacrifice is like a woman kissing a picture of her husband after he returns from a war.

When the real thing arrives, continued attention to the picture ceases to be touching evidence of devotion and becomes a misguided insult.
As I pointed out to you prior, Paul is suggesting that the partaking of bread and wine is a continual thing, and this is after Christ' departure from earth (1Corin 11:24-26).

So the husband hasn't return from war yet (Christ did not return yet), so we are to keep the feast as a remembrance of him ("Do this in remembrance of me") until he DOES return.

Because after all, when he returns we won't have to "remember" him, because he will be here with us!!!

:D
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