Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

[We_Are_VENOM]

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I think it is important all Christians ask ourselves that question. Lets get right into it.

My former view: The “Passover is for the Jews, but I am a Christian”. My view was, the Passover was just a Jewish thing, along with many of the other holy days/festivals of the old testament.

My view was also that the old testament is a rich source of great history pertaining to God and how he dealt with his chosen people. However, most of that stuff didn’t translate over to Christianity, which is the “new stuff”…the “new covenant” with Jesus Christ.

Well, that is what I used to think..however…

What had happened was: Over the past 3 years (on and off), I’ve been partaking in Bible studies with a particular Christian denomination. They called themselves World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG). I had never heard of them until recent, and if you aren’t familiar with them, they have a very unorthodox way of Bible interpretation and with that comes, of course, very “wacky” Biblical doctrines.

For example, their most infamous doctrine is perhaps the teaching that there is a “Mother” God, along with God the “Father”. Need I say more? (and that isn’t even the tip of the iceberg).

Another thing that stands out, is that they are somehow/someway able to translate a lot of Old Testament teachings over to the New Testament…and after studying with them, you will find yourself not being able to take almost anything literally in the Bible…because with them, they take even basic Biblical teachings in some symbolic or metaphorical way.

Now, I said all of that to say this; me and a particular fellow (lets call him Ollie) from the WMSCOG have been studying off and on for the past 3 years. We’ve had long, mentally DRAINING discussions…our discussions include questions like..

1. Is Ahn Sahng-hong (their church founder) Jesus Christ? It is what they believe.

2. Is baptism required for salvation? It is what they believe.

3. Is there a “Mother” God? It is what they believe.

4. Is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the same person? It is what they believe.

5. Is the commemoration/celebration of the Passover a requirement for salvation? It is what they believe.

That being said, I found myself disagreeing with all 5 of those. But what I can’t deny is, the fact that on most of the conversations that me and Ollie have had, Ollie has made compelling Biblical cases for almost all of those topics.

I’ve found myself admitting (even to him), that “even though I disagree with you, I can see where you are coming from”.

Now, this thread is being created based on something that he was able to convince me of, which is that Christians should celebrate the Passover…now, is the Passover a requirement for salvation? I have mixed views on this, depending on the day.

However, I am convinced that the Passover is a commandment by God, not just to the Jews, but for Christians as well.

Ollie was able to convince me by taking old testament scriptures, and harmonizing them with new testament verses…and making it all one cohesive unit.

After putting up so much resistance to his case, I finally had to bow down to the truth of the matter, in the affirmative.

Some of you may already be familiar with his case, but I certainly was not. Apparently, I need to read my Bible more. I mean, I thought I knew my Bible..but there are levels to this.

So, what was his case? See below…

[We_Are_VENOM]

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What did the Passover represent?: God was on the cusp of striking down every first born male in Egypt (humans and animals). God commanded the Israelites (every family) to “take a lamb without defect, and take some of the blood of the lamb and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs” (Exodus 12:5-7).

The idea was for the blood on the posts/doorframes to act as markers, so that when the Lord went through Egypt striking down the firstborn, the houses that he crossed with blood on the doorframes, he would “pass over” the house, sparing home from his wrath.

A Celebration: God commanded the Israelites to commemorate that day, as a lasting ordinance for generations to come (Exodus 12:14). By celebrating the Passover every year, every generation will be reminded as to how the Lord delivered his people from slavery/bondage and spared them the havoc that reeked the Egyptians (v.26-27).

Failing to Keep the Passover: We read in Numbers 9:13, that if anyone was ceremonially clean and yet failed to keep the Passover, that person was cut off from the people, and that this person shall “bear his sin”.

So, what does “cutting off” (kareth) mean? Well, according to my limited research, it could either mean premature death, or some form of banishment. Either way, as the scripture says, the person shall “bear his sin”…so we know that to be “cut off from the people” wasn’t necessarily a good thing.

Now that we know what the Passover is, and what it was meant to represent, and also God’s attitude towards those who did not keep it...so the question is; how does that translate over to the New Testament, and the new covenant for Christians?

Well, let’s see…

On the day of the Last Supper (Lords Supper), Jesus and his disciples celebrated Passover, but in a different way.

As they were commemorating the Passover, there was no lamb present. Well, no lamb animal, that is. But there was a lamb present; a person. It was Jesus. Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1:29).

During the supper, Jesus took bread, gave thanks, and gave it to his disciples, and said “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me”. (Luke 22:19-20)

Keyword: “remembrance”.

When the Israelites kept the Passover every year, they did so in “remembrance” of what God had done for them.

Same thing with Jesus, as he is saying that on this day (Passover) remember what he has done for us and that by eating of this bread, you are eating of his body (Matt 26:26).

And since Jesus is the Lamb, by eating of this bread you are eating of the Passover lamb.

Now, the keyword is “bread”, in its association with Jesus. Why is this important?

It is important because, when we read in John 6:35 that Jesus said “I am the BREAD of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger”….and v. 33 states “the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life into the world”.

If you read the context of what they were discussing, the people were kind of bragging about how God gave the Israelites “bread from heaven”. But Jesus is saying that, as of now, he is the bread that came down from heaven (v. 41), and if you eat of his bread, you will not die (v. 50).

And finally, in verse 53, Jesus states “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”.

Keywords: Unless you eat the flesh.

Now, compare to: Matt 26:26, Jesus took bread, gave thanks, and said take this, “EAT; THIS IS MY BODY”.

Jesus said you have no life in you if you do not eat of his bread (the lamb).

Well, this is synonymous with being “cut off” from the people if you did not eat of the Passover lamb (from the old testament), as previously mentioned.

In closing: Of course, there are folks who are aware of all this. In fact, I’ve been to churches where communion is taken (usually the first Sunday of every month). However, Ollie’s point is, churches aren’t commemorating the Passover on the day that it is to be kept. The Passover was to be kept on a specific day, and churches are out doing their own thing and not obeying God’s word.

It is Ollie's view (and the view of his church), that Easter Sunday has replaced Passover in the church...and they view this as VERY unfortunate, considering the fact that we are not commanded to commemorate Jesus' resurrection. Of course, they recognize that we have the freedom to commemorate Jesus' resurrection, but NOT at the expense of the Passover, which is an ordinance directly given from God to the people.

This, in their opinion, is a grave mistake.

Either way, this was all knew to me…and I am now convinced that the Passover is to be kept, in the precedent Jesus set, with no exceptions.

What do you think?

[Miles]

Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Not unless the Big Guy put his signature to it. Did he?


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[William]

Does anyone stop to wonder why religion would claim that The Creator of this Universe would somehow have a need to kill first born male children and command humans to do such strange things like having the blood of baby sheep be smeared onto doorposts...to basically set up in the mind of human beings, superstitious ideas which evolved into - not just tradition - but tradition if not followed, which can have one excommunicated [and even culled] from the community.

This is the stuff of originally cultist behavior which simply evolved into accepted religion after growing in popularity and therefore giving it a stamp of public approval.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]

This caught my eye because I just watched an interview with Dr. Ronald Hendel on the Exodus today.

Search youtube for "Was There A Historical Exodus? Cultural Memory - Dr. Ronald Hendel" if interested. I found it super interesting. Bible literalists will not enjoy it, but it really made understanding why the Exodus story may have come to be even if no extra-Biblical sources or archeology support the story as is.

Anyway, back to the OP.

I think you really only have 2 choices as a Christian.

1) Adhere to ALL commands in both Old and New testaments. No exceptions. Otherwise you are cherry picking and deciding for yourself what the God of the Bible REALLY wants you to do.

2) Choose a denomination that doesn't follow all the rules as set out in the Bible and hope for the best. There's many flavors to choose from, choose wisely.

Now, as an atheist, I can tell you that trying to solve this sort of dilemma and others by really reading and studying the Bible is what started my journey to deconversion. You either start inventing fanciful interpretations to harmonize it all or start cherry picking. I came to the conclusion no actual god would make things this complicated or ridiculous. As William has pointed out, when you step back and think about it, why would an all knowing god slaughter children to make a point? Even if a god thought this was a good idea, why would an all knowing god require you to slaughter some lambs and paint your door frame? Is he not actually all knowing and can only smell blood?

[William]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]

This caught my eye because I just watched an interview with Dr. Ronald Hendel on the Exodus today.

Search youtube for "Was There A Historical Exodus? Cultural Memory - Dr. Ronald Hendel" if interested. I found it super interesting. Bible literalists will not enjoy it, but it really made understanding why the Exodus story may have come to be even if no extra-Biblical sources or archeology support the story as is.

I am at 15:10 of the video

- as Ron begins with his expansion of the idea of initiation of individuals into cultural beliefs beginning with the example of "The Passover".

Anyway, back to the OP.

On the contrary - the video is relevant to the OP subject [The Passover] and perhaps it could be agreed that anyone participating in the thread might first watch the video...

I think you really only have 2 choices as a Christian.

1) Adhere to ALL commands in both Old and New testaments. No exceptions. Otherwise you are cherry picking and deciding for yourself what the God of the Bible REALLY wants you to do.

2) Choose a denomination that doesn't follow all the rules as set out in the Bible and hope for the best. There's many flavors to choose from, choose wisely.

This is a reasonable observation. However, it does show the limitations of Christian thinking [as a branch of Theism]
A third option [for those , like myself] is that one can cease calling oneself a Christian altogether and simply refer to one's position as "Theist" [In my case "Agnostic Theist"]

Now, as an atheist, I can tell you that trying to solve this sort of dilemma and others by really reading and studying the Bible is what started my journey to deconversion. You either start inventing fanciful interpretations to harmonize it all or start cherry picking. I came to the conclusion no actual god would make things this complicated or ridiculous.

Now, as a Theist, my own journey was different again. For whatever reason, I did not take the popular stories of the bible in any literal sense, even when I referred to the position of being a "Christian".
When I realized there was scientific evidence, likewise, I found nothing within the evidence which pointed to us not being within [experiencing] something which was created.
What the evidence did was blow my mind as to the extraordinary and nature of The Creator, witnessed with the actual fact of The Creation.
In that, the scientific evidence compelled me deeper into Theism.
I mention this only in relation to how you and I approached and reacted to the ideas of cultural belief as presented in the lore of the folk telling the stories.

As William has pointed out, when you step back and think about it, why would an all knowing god slaughter children to make a point?

I simply cannot fit the two ideas together in an coherent manner.

• The Universe, [as currently understood] being a creation.

• The assumed character of The Creator of said Universe, as biblically presented.

Even if a god thought this was a good idea, why would an all knowing god require you to slaughter some lambs and paint your door frame? Is he not actually all knowing and can only smell blood?

Pretty much. Even as symbolism, it is a heavy movement. The idea the folk actually went and did this thing to lambs is hard enough to comprehend....other than understanding we evolve from savagery, and thus either made something in our image or an entity [who is not the creator of this universe] and was not human, played the part.
If indeed a 'god' ordered such a thing and was behind the whole unfolding [iow - the story is true - based on actual events] it still cannot be said of the entity that the entity is the same entity which created this Universe.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Does anyone stop to wonder why religion would claim that The Creator of this Universe would somehow have a need to kill first born male children

The religion would claim it, because that is what happened. That is why they would claim it.

and command humans to do such strange things like having the blood of baby sheep be smeared onto doorposts

"Strange" is subjective. Strange to whom? You? NBA legend Rick Barry shot underhanded free throws...which some considered "strange".

Yet, his career free throw percentage was almost 90%.

So, "strange", yet effective.

...to basically set up in the mind of human beings, superstitious ideas which evolved into - not just tradition - but tradition if not followed, which can have one excommunicated [and even culled] from the community.

This is the stuff of originally cultist behavior which simply evolved into accepted religion after growing in popularity and therefore giving it a stamp of public approval.

Genetic fallacy.

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]

This caught my eye because I just watched an interview with Dr. Ronald Hendel on the Exodus today.

Search youtube for "Was There A Historical Exodus? Cultural Memory - Dr. Ronald Hendel" if interested. I found it super interesting. Bible literalists will not enjoy it, but it really made understanding why the Exodus story may have come to be even if no extra-Biblical sources or archeology support the story as is.

I will have to check that out, fa sho

Anyway, back to the OP.

I think you really only have 2 choices as a Christian.

1) Adhere to ALL commands in both Old and New testaments. No exceptions. Otherwise you are cherry picking and deciding for yourself what the God of the Bible REALLY wants you to do.

Not necessarily...because some things were done away with. The key is trying to find what was, and what wasn't.

Look, we are all trying (some of us) to do our best to follow God's commands. We may not get it right all of the time, but the effort is there.

2) Choose a denomination that doesn't follow all the rules as set out in the Bible and hope for the best. There's many flavors to choose from, choose wisely.

Exactly, which is why I do not follow any specific church and/or denomination. I call myself a freelance Christian.

Now, as an atheist, I can tell you that trying to solve this sort of dilemma and others by really reading and studying the Bible is what started my journey to deconversion.

One (a true Christian) does not leave Christianity, because, after all..

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Of course, those words are meaningless to you but you see my point.

You either start inventing fanciful interpretations to harmonize it all or start cherry picking. I came to the conclusion no actual god would make things this complicated or ridiculous.

That is why you pray and ask the Lord to have the Holy Spirit guide you through your studies. I'm telling you, once the message is revealed to you, it makes you that much closer to God.

And if that is the end-goal, then maybe that was the method all along.

As William has pointed out, when you step back and think about it, why would an all knowing god slaughter children to make a point?

The children are saved, and with God...and God is the giver and taker of life.

Even if a god thought this was a good idea, why would an all knowing god require you to slaughter some lambs and paint your door frame? Is he not actually all knowing and can only smell blood?

Interesting questions. I can certainly answer as to why lambs were used as sacrifices for sin, but this particular situation (as it all played out), I don't know.

The answer I will provide is; perhaps God was setting the precedent of "obedience". In other words, if you do as I say, good things will happen to you.

Because after all, if anyone disobeyed that command, they would have been caught in the "crossfire". But, since they obeyed, they were spared.

The theme of the entire OT was practically "if you obey, I will bless you with blessings beyond imagination...if you disobey, then its time for a spanking".


Of course, God could have spared the firstborn of the Israelites without the blood on the doorframes, but perhaps he wanted to set the foundation of "obey my commands, and you will be rewarded" thing here.

This is all conjecture, but I actually like this reasoning.

[benchwarmer]

Anyway, back to the OP.

I think you really only have 2 choices as a Christian.

1) Adhere to ALL commands in both Old and New testaments. No exceptions. Otherwise you are cherry picking and deciding for yourself what the God of the Bible REALLY wants you to do.

Not necessarily...because some things were done away with. The key is trying to find what was, and what wasn't.

That right there is my point. Why would a god have you be confused and need to do extensive study in order to find out what to do? That should be a huge red flag.

Is God trying to confuse you? If not, it should be crystal clear.

2) Choose a denomination that doesn't follow all the rules as set out in the Bible and hope for the best. There's many flavors to choose from, choose wisely.

Exactly, which is why I do not follow any specific church and/or denomination. I call myself a freelance Christian.

That's even more dangerous isn't it? You are striking out on your own and doing your own "pick and choose".

Now, as an atheist, I can tell you that trying to solve this sort of dilemma and others by really reading and studying the Bible is what started my journey to deconversion.

One (a true Christian) does not leave Christianity, because, after all..

When Christians themselves can't even agree on what a true Christian is, it is quite amusing when they try to call out those people who have left as never "true Christians".

You either start inventing fanciful interpretations to harmonize it all or start cherry picking. I came to the conclusion no actual god would make things this complicated or ridiculous.

That is why you pray and ask the Lord to have the Holy Spirit guide you through your studies. I'm telling you, once the message is revealed to you, it makes you that much closer to God.

You say this as if myself and others who have left weren't doing this. Again, no rigorous study should be necessary to figure out what the basic rules are. Why would an all knowing, loving god play "Where's Waldo" with what rules are in and which ones are out?

As William has pointed out, when you step back and think about it, why would an all knowing god slaughter children to make a point?

The children are saved, and with God...and God is the giver and taker of life.

I find this apologetic ridiculous and disgusting at the same time. Even mere humans see killing a child and the trauma that goes with that to those effected as one of the most heinous crimes possible. It renders this life as pointless. If God can save everyone by just killing them as babies then do that with everyone and game over. Everyone is saved.

What this says is that you think God couldn't come up with a better plan to make His point. If I can come up with better, more effective plans, surely a god could. The story reeks of unimaginative men writing stories of a war god.

Some better plans:

Threaten the life of the guy in charge. When he fails to deliver, kill him. Move to the next guy in charge. I guarantee you, after 1 or 2 spectacular deaths of those in charge, the point would be made and problem solved. Besides, according to you, they will be saved. Why not lessen the pain of those left?

Simply use God magic and instantly remove all slaves from Egypt and place them in Israel. That would be both extremely spectacular and not require ANY death. Apparently God can do anything, so ...

However, what do we have? A story filled with slaughter. I think if there is a god he/she/it will be most pleased I rejected this story. I have higher expectations of a god it seems.

[We_Are_VENOM]

That right there is my point. Why would a god have you be confused and need to do extensive study in order to find out what to do? That should be a huge red flag.

Is God trying to confuse you? If not, it should be crystal clear.

The Bible says what it says, and any confusion as to what is meant upon what it says, comes as a result of our own misunderstandings.

As the saying goes, "I know that you heard what I said, but did you hear what I meant"?

That's even more dangerous isn't it? You are striking out on your own and doing your own "pick and choose".

As long as I have Jesus, I am never on my own.

Second, when I pick and choose, I dont do so based on personal convenience or preference..but based on what I genuinely believe is the right choice.

When Christians themselves can't even agree on what a true Christian is, it is quite amusing when they try to call out those people who have left as never "true Christians".

Hey, I am just going by what the Bible says.

Don't kill the messenger.

You say this as if myself and others who have left weren't doing this. Again, no rigorous study should be necessary to figure out what the basic rules are. Why would an all knowing, loving god play "Where's Waldo" with what rules are in and which ones are out?

Any hunter will tell you that the fun is in the actual "hunt".

No fun in having a deer knock on your front door and saying "Dinner is on me tonight".

Having these studies helps, not only for Christian brotherhood and fellowship, but also allows me/us to feel closer to God.

Just like a hunter will tell you that being out in the wilderness allows him to feel closer to nature and what it has to offer.

I find this apologetic ridiculous and disgusting at the same time. Even mere humans see killing a child and the trauma that goes with that to those effected as one of the most heinous crimes possible. It renders this life as pointless. If God can save everyone by just killing them as babies then do that with everyone and game over. Everyone is saved.

Please, no discussions on morality here. I dont think you want those problems, amigo.

What this says is that you think God couldn't come up with a better plan to make His point. If I can come up with better, more effective plans, surely a god could. The story reeks of unimaginative men writing stories of a war god.

Some better plans:

Threaten the life of the guy in charge. When he fails to deliver, kill him. Move to the next guy in charge. I guarantee you, after 1 or 2 spectacular deaths of those in charge, the point would be made and problem solved. Besides, according to you, they will be saved. Why not lessen the pain of those left?

Simply use God magic and instantly remove all slaves from Egypt and place them in Israel. That would be both extremely spectacular and not require ANY death. Apparently God can do anything, so ...

However, what do we have? A story filled with slaughter. I think if there is a god he/she/it will be most pleased I rejected this story. I have higher expectations of a god it seems.

A few things..

1. If there was a better way to do it, God would have done it that way.

2. I'm still trying to figure out what part of "all life belongs to God", and "all the children were saved" dont you understand.

3. Instead of concerning yourself about the children, perhaps you should concern yourself about your own salvation, or lack thereof.

4. You sure speak with a lot of conviction, involving what you believe to be a fictional character (God) A little bit of anger and a LOT of disdain. Hmm.