Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

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Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

I think it is important all Christians ask ourselves that question. Lets get right into it.

My former view: The “Passover is for the Jews, but I am a Christian”. My view was, the Passover was just a Jewish thing, along with many of the other holy days/festivals of the old testament.

My view was also that the old testament is a rich source of great history pertaining to God and how he dealt with his chosen people. However, most of that stuff didn’t translate over to Christianity, which is the “new stuff”…the “new covenant” with Jesus Christ.

Well, that is what I used to think..however…

What had happened was: Over the past 3 years (on and off), I’ve been partaking in Bible studies with a particular Christian denomination. They called themselves World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG). I had never heard of them until recent, and if you aren’t familiar with them, they have a very unorthodox way of Bible interpretation and with that comes, of course, very “wacky” Biblical doctrines.

For example, their most infamous doctrine is perhaps the teaching that there is a “Mother” God, along with God the “Father”. Need I say more? (and that isn’t even the tip of the iceberg).

Another thing that stands out, is that they are somehow/someway able to translate a lot of Old Testament teachings over to the New Testament…and after studying with them, you will find yourself not being able to take almost anything literally in the Bible…because with them, they take even basic Biblical teachings in some symbolic or metaphorical way.

Now, I said all of that to say this; me and a particular fellow (lets call him Ollie) from the WMSCOG have been studying off and on for the past 3 years. We’ve had long, mentally DRAINING discussions…our discussions include questions like..

1. Is Ahn Sahng-hong (their church founder) Jesus Christ? It is what they believe.

2. Is baptism required for salvation? It is what they believe.

3. Is there a “Mother” God? It is what they believe.

4. Is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the same person? It is what they believe.

5. Is the commemoration/celebration of the Passover a requirement for salvation? It is what they believe.

That being said, I found myself disagreeing with all 5 of those. But what I can’t deny is, the fact that on most of the conversations that me and Ollie have had, Ollie has made compelling Biblical cases for almost all of those topics.

I’ve found myself admitting (even to him), that “even though I disagree with you, I can see where you are coming from”.

Now, this thread is being created based on something that he was able to convince me of, which is that Christians should celebrate the Passover…now, is the Passover a requirement for salvation? I have mixed views on this, depending on the day.

However, I am convinced that the Passover is a commandment by God, not just to the Jews, but for Christians as well.

Ollie was able to convince me by taking old testament scriptures, and harmonizing them with new testament verses…and making it all one cohesive unit.

After putting up so much resistance to his case, I finally had to bow down to the truth of the matter, in the affirmative.

Some of you may already be familiar with his case, but I certainly was not. Apparently, I need to read my Bible more. I mean, I thought I knew my Bible..but there are levels to this.

So, what was his case? See below…
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:16 am ...Paul apparently kept the Festival of Unleavened Bread, which is in conjunction with the 7 day week of Passover. (Acts 20:6).

ACTS 20:6 NWT

but we put out to sea from Philippi after the days of the Unleavened Bread, and within five days we came to them in Troʹas, and there we spent seven days.
There is no mention of Paul keeping the Passover. The writer simply presents the Festival as a way to pinpoint when his narrative takes place. If an orthodox Jew left for New York the day after Christmas, does that mean he celebrated it. What about if I left Arabia for London after the month of Ramadam does that mean I'm Muslim?

The verse in no way supports the conclusion Paul observed the Passover on that occassion.




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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #32

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:21 pm You continue to make my point. If the Bible is the word of God, why should there be any misunderstandings? Is God not familiar with what would be clear to us?
What is "clear" to individuals can be subjective. What is clear to me may not be clear to you, and vice versa.
Still making my point. An actual god would have the Bible (if that is supposed to be the medium of transferring knowledge) be clear to EVERYONE. No guessing, no misunderstanding.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:05 am Even the most clearest message can still be misconstrued.
So you are saying it's not possible for your god to make things clear for everyone? That's odd, I thought this god was all powerful and all knowing.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:05 am For those that it is clear to, it is their job to try to make it clear to others.
That seems entirely wrong. How would any given person know it's actually clear to them? Especially when another person, with a different interpretation also thinks it's clear. Seems we have an issue that only the god could resolve.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:05 am When I read a scripture, I make an initial "ruling", and unless I see indisputable evidence against my official ruling, my ruling "stands".

It can always be overturned, but I need to see convincing reasons why my initial assessment in error.

Works for me.
That's great that it works for you, but you've also just admitted you might be wrong. So, we have a case were you, a committed Christian who is trying very hard to understand, possibly wrong about what your god actually means. That sounds like a major failure in communication and that can only rest on the god, not on you, me, or any human that is supposedly the creation of this god.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:05 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:21 pm Not trying to kill the messenger. The entire point of this topic is to discuss what the Bible says. Obviously it's not clear in many areas. That's the entire problem.
But that is what the Bible says. You said you left the religion...and Scripture says no true Christian leaves the religion, because if you leave, you were never a follower in the first place.

Now, if that much isn't clear...then again, we are back to misunderstandings I alluded to earlier. .
This brings us to another issue. You say "what the Bible says", yet shouldn't you, as a Christian, be more concerned with what Jesus has said or done?

The scripture you are quoting is the word of who? Did Jesus say those words or are you quoting "John", whoever that was? Who determines who is a Christian, Jesus or the author of 1 John who was not even quoting Jesus?

If you want to take the position that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true, factual, and correct, then buckle up, you may have a rough ride ahead. You might want to have a hard look at Leviticus. One example:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
19 You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.
Sounds like you better not have a garden with more than one kind of vegetable or put any clothes on that aren't 100% the same material. Have you started following that? If not, you can't turn around and start quoting 1 John at me. The above is Law, the musings of the author of 1 John seem less important in relation.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:21 pm You are essentially saying that God has made it complicated so we can have fellowship and feel close to God (and maybe have some fun). The sheer number of differing Christian denominations all trying to do this very thing and coming up with often very different answers should tell you something.
What it tells me is; let God be true, and all man liars (Rom 3:4).
Well, according to that scripture, you are a liar so why should I take your opinion into account? We also have the issue that you are now quoting Paul, not Jesus. Are you a Christian or a follower of Paul?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:21 pm So you assert. The problem is I've already shown 2 better ways and I came up with those in 2 minutes. An actual god would likely put my ideas to shame and have something truly spectacular that doesn't involve slaughtering children and livestock.
Better is subjective. Is a pizza better with pineapples on it? I say no, you say yes...either way, your way is right for you, and mines is right for me.

You get the point, don't you?
I do get the pizza point. However, there is generally no psychological trauma or the loss of life involved in choosing a pizza topping.

It is not subjective that killing another human causes the person doing the killing psychological trauma. Ask anyone who has been to war and had to kill. It is also not subjective that ending life, ends the life AND causes loss among those who are left.

Apparently the god written about in the Bible has no concern for those left behind. Not for their grief at all the slaughter, or the trauma caused to them by witnessing and/or taking part in it.

My plan had no slaughter, no trauma associated with killing, no dying whatsoever. My plan is factually 'better' for any humans involved left behind to deal with all the killing. The Bible plan is filled with needless bloodshed.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:21 pm And I'm trying to sort out why you think God would bother with all this if simply killing everyone himself will save everyone.

That's a pretty simple plan no? 100% success rate at saving everyone. Instead we have these contorted apologetics that try to sweep under the carpet anything the god of the Bible does that is clearly the musings of blood thirsty men.
God's ways are higher than our ways...and he can see things eons into the future while you don't even know what your world will look like an hour from now.
An actual god's ways, yes. I would agree. However, when I can tell that something was written based on the mind of men rather than the mind of an actual god, I reject it. It's actually one of the few things that is clear in the Bible. The hand of man on the supposed description of a god.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am 1. If your way is better, God would have used your way.
Not the Bible god. It used whatever way the authors thought was best. Massive displays of bloodshed and fear. Not the fingerprint of a loving god, so I reject it.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am 2. God did not use your way.
No god used my way or we would have amazing stories of bloodless victories. The Jews (and the rest of the world) would have had a clear and powerful sign that their god can and will do amazing things in amazing ways. The god of the Bible seems only capable of using the warring methods of men. Fear, slaughter, and the requirement to have men do much of the dirty work.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am 3. Therefore, your way is not better.[/b]

End of discussion.
That's fine if YOU don't want to discuss it, but I'm free to continue. Readers can decide for themselves if your view of a god is more appropriate than mine.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:00 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:21 pm More veiled threats? I'm not concerned per se about the children, just the obvious dichotomy of a loving god and the slaughter of children and livestock. An all powerful God could accomplish the same tasks without subjecting humans to all the trauma of killing. See my suggestions above. I'm partial to the instantaneous moving of all his people to a new land with no death. Can you imagine the look on the Egyptians faces? All their labor force gone in the blink of an eye and later reports of them living in splendor in Israel. No one would doubt the power of this god with such wonderous feats.
The trauma comes from disciplinary actions. Do as your parents tell you, and you won't get a spanking.
You obviously don't understand my point.

I'm not talking about the people actually killed. I'm talking about those left behind. Have you ever had to kill someone? If not, talk to someone who has. The trauma involved hurts the person(s) who has to deal with it, not the person who died and "got the spanking".

If a god could accomplish a task with no trauma to anyone, clearly that is factually 'better' than a method that causes trauma. The god of the Bible seems to have no concern for mental health. Just killing until people do his will. An actual, all powerful god would just accomplish the task. Need to free some people? Just free them. Immobilize the guards, usher the people free. Once gone, the guards continue living, the people enslaved are free.

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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #33

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm Still making my point. An actual god would have the Bible (if that is supposed to be the medium of transferring knowledge) be clear to EVERYONE. No guessing, no misunderstanding.
So basically, your argument here is essentially that...

1. The reason (one of the reasons, perhaps) I stopped following is because the Bible is cryptic and sometimes difficult to understand.

I have two responses to that..

A. That is your opinion, which is subjective.

B. Christianity could still be true regardless of how easy/difficult it is to understand the Scriptures.

But, thanks for your opinion though. It wasn't needed, but it is noted. :D
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm So you are saying it's not possible for your god to make things clear for everyone? That's odd, I thought this god was all powerful and all knowing.
According to the Bible, God did make it clear to/for everyone...by creating the world and everything in it (Romans 1:20).

When I see the paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, it is clear that there was a painter.

How much more so should an entire universe which began to exist, should be evidence of a Creator?

But hey.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm That seems entirely wrong. How would any given person know it's actually clear to them? Especially when another person, with a different interpretation also thinks it's clear. Seems we have an issue that only the god could resolve.
Some things are clear, some things not so clear. But we live, learn, study, and pray. We let the Holy Spirit guide us to the truth, and when that happens, God is resolving it.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm That's great that it works for you, but you've also just admitted you might be wrong.
I might be. You know, being human and all.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm So, we have a case were you, a committed Christian who is trying very hard to understand, possibly wrong about what your god actually means. That sounds like a major failure in communication and that can only rest on the god, not on you, me, or any human that is supposedly the creation of this god.
That, OR, maybe I need to partake in more Bible studies, prayer, and meditation. Maybe its not God, maybe its me.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm This brings us to another issue. You say "what the Bible says", yet shouldn't you, as a Christian, be more concerned with what Jesus has said or done?

The scripture you are quoting is the word of who? Did Jesus say those words or are you quoting "John", whoever that was? Who determines who is a Christian, Jesus or the author of 1 John who was not even quoting Jesus?
Good stuff, BW :approve: I like that.

So then, we have to dissect/unpack whether or not the NT books are credible/reliable sources of Christian information/theology.

Being a Bible-believing Christian, I am presupposing that they are credible/reliable....although I've yet state such a case on here or anywhere else on this forum.

Perhaps some time in the near future.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm If you want to take the position that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true, factual, and correct, then buckle up, you may have a rough ride ahead. You might want to have a hard look at Leviticus. One example:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
19 You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.
Sounds like you better not have a garden with more than one kind of vegetable or put any clothes on that aren't 100% the same material. Have you started following that? If not, you can't turn around and start quoting 1 John at me. The above is Law, the musings of the author of 1 John seem less important in relation.
Most of that stuff, I don't do anyway.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm Well, according to that scripture, you are a liar so why should I take your opinion into account? We also have the issue that you are now quoting Paul, not Jesus. Are you a Christian or a follower of Paul?
Ok, and since I am a liar, don't follow me; follow Jesus.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm I do get the pizza point. However, there is generally no psychological trauma or the loss of life involved in choosing a pizza topping.

It is not subjective that killing another human causes the person doing the killing psychological trauma. Ask anyone who has been to war and had to kill. It is also not subjective that ending life, ends the life AND causes loss among those who are left.

Apparently the god written about in the Bible has no concern for those left behind. Not for their grief at all the slaughter, or the trauma caused to them by witnessing and/or taking part in it.
Hmm. When someone loses their life, we call it "death", right?

So, "death" is a name, right?

Guess what?

Jesus is the name above every name. (Heb 1:4, Col 2:9).

Jesus is not only above death, but he conquered it.

And besides, God can easily restore life..in fact, all of our lives will be restored.

What did Jesus say? John 11:25-26

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.

Just sayin. :D
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm My plan had no slaughter, no trauma associated with killing, no dying whatsoever. My plan is factually 'better' for any humans involved left behind to deal with all the killing. The Bible plan is filled with needless bloodshed.
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Going through the tough times only makes you appreciate the good times even more.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm An actual god's ways, yes. I would agree. However, when I can tell that something was written based on the mind of men rather than the mind of an actual god, I reject it. It's actually one of the few things that is clear in the Bible. The hand of man on the supposed description of a god.
Please clarify.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm Not the Bible god. It used whatever way the authors thought was best. Massive displays of bloodshed and fear. Not the fingerprint of a loving god, so I reject it.
I'm glad you mentioned this. You say..

"Massive displays of bloodshed and fear".

As if God wakes up every morning and decides to go on these temper tantrums.

Not at all. God was (is?) a strict disciplinarian, and what you call bloodshed and fear were results of deliberate disobedience on the side of the people.

However, what about the other side. The side of blessings and rewards, which unbelievers conveniently never mentions when they go on their "God is an angry monster" tirades.

Lets just consider Deut 28...

“Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God:

3 “Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

4 “Blessed shall be the [a]fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.

5 “Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

6 “Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.

8 “The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

9 “The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you His good [c]treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them."


So, expect rewards for obedience, and discipline for disobedience...but that is life, anyway..

Usually, just usually...

1a. When you are a good employee: You come to work on time, you work hard, and you do good work. You are usually rewarded with raises, higher positions, praise, recognition, etc.

1b.You do bad work, you get verbally reprimanded, written reprimanded, unpaid time off, or worse case; terminated.

2a. When you eat right, exercise: You have energy, your body looks physically great, you have no negative physical effects/ailments. You may find yourself in the doctors office less, you get attention from the opposite sex, etc.

2b. When you don't eat right, exercise: You have less energy, you gain weight. You have health problems, no attention from opposite sex.

You get the point. We live our entire lives based on the concept of "When you do good, good things happen, when you do bad, bad things happen".

So the bloodshed that you mentioned wasn't the result of good behavior.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm No god used my way or we would have amazing stories of bloodless victories. The Jews (and the rest of the world) would have had a clear and powerful sign that their god can and will do amazing things in amazing ways. The god of the Bible seems only capable of using the warring methods of men. Fear, slaughter, and the requirement to have men do much of the dirty work.
Were the Jews doing good, which caused the fear and slaughter?
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm That's fine if YOU don't want to discuss it, but I'm free to continue. Readers can decide for themselves if your view of a god is more appropriate than mine.
Subjective.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm You obviously don't understand my point.

I'm not talking about the people actually killed. I'm talking about those left behind. Have you ever had to kill someone? If not, talk to someone who has. The trauma involved hurts the person(s) who has to deal with it, not the person who died and "got the spanking".
And those people left behind are still under the grace and mercy of God. Still in a better position than those who aren't under the grace and mercy of God.
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm If a god could accomplish a task with no trauma to anyone, clearly that is factually 'better' than a method that causes trauma. The god of the Bible seems to have no concern for mental health. Just killing until people do his will. An actual, all powerful god would just accomplish the task. Need to free some people? Just free them. Immobilize the guards, usher the people free. Once gone, the guards continue living, the people enslaved are free.
So, who gets to decide what is right or wrong? Good, or evil? You? How is your way good, and God's way evil?

Ohh, I get it...the path of less trauma? Why is that a bad thing? I can say that it is a good thing because it is better suited to allow those who are traumatized to not commit the act that caused them to be traumatized.

So, some "good" came out of it. Now what?
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #34

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 am WHEN DID JESUS PASS THE BREAD AND THE WINE?
It was certainly on the day of the Passover but it wasn't during the Passover meal. The Passover meal was over when Jesus did what he did. Luke reports ....

In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.[/color]
That is interesting, because Mark 14:22..

22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”

Matthew 26:26

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

But that aside, Paul rehashed the events of the last supper (1Cor 11:26), and the latter part of what he said was..

"For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."

Keyword: Whenever.

Meaning that it was a practice, not a "one and done" thing.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 am That is incorrect, Jesus gave no instruction to keep the feast of the Passover. The passing of broken bread and the passing of wine between the participants was no part of the Passover commemoration.
Again, Paul was speaking about 20 or more years after the Last Supper when he said what he said to the Church in Corinth (1Cor 11:26).

So apparently they were still partaking in the eating and drinking of the bread and wine then, so why stop?

The Passover was an everlasting ordinance when it was first implemented (Ex 12:17), and Jesus said to eat and drink of the bread and wine and do so in remembrance of him, which is ALSO an everlasting ordinance .

That, and again Paul also stated (which you are aware of) to let us keep the festival (1Corinth 5:8).

So everything points to keeping the Passover with bread and wine. The Passover never went away, just how it is kept was changed.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 am Remembrance of Jesus no part of the Passover commemoration.
Ohh, so when Jesus said, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you", it had nothing to do with him being eager to establish the new way of the Passover commemoration?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 am Jesus explicitly said he did not come to change as single letter of the Law, he had no authority to add a modification to the Passove instructions.
No, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law (Matt 5:17), which he didn't. The law was not abolished, but rather tweaked.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 am Not exactly. Luke points out that that they "continued eating". If the Sedar (Passover meal) was not over the point is redundant ( while they were eating they continued eating?!). Since both the bread and the wine symbolized Christs upcoming sacrifice, and the writer spcifically says the wine was passed after the meal, then a logical reading is that both were passed after the sedar (celebration) was over.
Well again, Matthew and Mark states that it was during the meal...but either way, you can round it up, or round it down...but that is irrelevant...because as long as it took place during the event of the Passover...same day, same table, same event.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:29 am
There is no mention of Paul keeping the Passover. The writer simply presents the Festival as a way to pinpoint when his narrative takes place. If an orthodox Jew left for New York the day after Christmas, does that mean he celebrated it. What about if I left Arabia for London after the month of Ramadam does that mean I'm Muslim?

The verse in no way supports the conclusion Paul observed the Passover on that occassion.
LOL. Your point will be well-conceived if we didn't have Paul stating for us to keep the festival in other places.

If he is keeping the festival in 1 Corinthians, then he kept the festival in the book of Acts.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 pm ...Paul rehashed the events of the last supper (1Cor 11:26), and the latter part of what he said was..

"For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."
Why is there no mention of eating a roasted lamb (which was a required part of the Passover)?

NOTE: Wine was not a stipulation in the Passover instructions. It beccame a tradition by Jesus day but was not a scriptural requirement.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 pm
The Passover was an everlasting ordinance when it was first implemented (Ex 12:17)
EXODUS 12:17 NWT

You must keep the Festival of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day, I will bring your multitudes out of the land of Egypt. And you must keep this day throughout your generations as a lasting statute


Various other translations : https://biblehub.com/exodus/12-17.htm

The Hebrew word used here is OLAM. It is translated as "forever" in most English bibles but has a much broader meaning that the English "forever" or "everlasting".
The Hebrew word "olam" basically means where "the end cannot be seen", this can of course mean you cannot see the end because there is no end (it's "everlasting" or "eternal") OR because the end is obscure or has not been revealed. Thus in some cases (depending on the context) the word can be refering to something that is simply long-lasting rather than eternal.
This is reflected in the fact that the LXX the Hebrew olam is mostly translated the Hebrew "olam" as aon or (sometimes) aionios. The Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott shows that this equivalent Greek word aion meant "a period of existence", such as "life-time", "life", "an age", "generation", "posterity" (ho mellon aion), "a long space of time", "of old", "for ages" (ap aionos), "a definite space of time", "an era", "epoch", "age", "period", and so on.

Image
source: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

CONCLUSION: A close examination of Exodus 12:17 reveals that God intended the PASSOVER to remain in force a "long time" but not necessarily forever.





JW
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 pm Paul ... stated (which you are aware of) to let us keep the festival (1Corinth 5:8).
DID PAUL ENCOURAGE CHRISTIANS TO KEEP THE JEWISH PASSOVER ?

1 CORINTHIANS 5:7, 8 NWT

Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. 8 So, then, let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul was not instructing Christians to observe the Jewish Passover, he was using the literal feast as a METAPHOR for the Christian calling.

Image


Speaking of the need to be morally clean we note Paul spoke of Christians themselves being an new batch [of bread] "free from ferment". He didn't say to use literal bread he said to use "the bread of sincerity and truth". Literal bread is made out wheat or some other kind of grain, not feelings. And human bodies are not literally fermented with yeast /leaven. Paul also refers to Christ as a lamb - but Christ was not a baby sheep he was a human. Evidently Paul was pointing to the true significance of the Passover lamb, using it as a picture of the reality of Christ's sacrifice.

So when Paul urges Christians to "keep the festival" he was urging Christians to use their entire life course in a way that reflects their relationship with God.




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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #39

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 pm ...
Mark 14:22..

22 While they were eating , Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”[/b]

Matthew 26:26

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

... but either way, you can round it up, or round it down...but that is irrelevant...

Fair enough.

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 pm ...because as long as it took place during the event of the Passover...same day, same table, same event.


So? What?!
If a man proposes marriage during the Superbowl does that mean he has changed the superbowl?

Do the players all, have to get down on one knee or will the wife have to put on padding and attempt a touchdown for every anniversary? The date was clearly significant and Jesus (like the man making a proposal ) voiced his aniticipation of the event. But at some point "during/after the event" he did something unexpected that was not a prescribed part of the ceremony. It doesn't modify or add to or "tweak" the original event, it is a proposal which will continue apart and separate from the circumstances of its origjn, in everything but date.
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Re: Is Celebration of Passover a Requirement for Salvation?

Post #40

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm Still making my point. An actual god would have the Bible (if that is supposed to be the medium of transferring knowledge) be clear to EVERYONE. No guessing, no misunderstanding.
So basically, your argument here is essentially that...

1. The reason (one of the reasons, perhaps) I stopped following is because the Bible is cryptic and sometimes difficult to understand.
No. ONE of the reasons I reject the Biblical view of a god is because it is often contradictory and clearly the words of men. A god writing to us would be precise and clear and if the god thought there might be room for difficulties, would have imbued us with the ability to read it clearly.

I understand what the words of the Bible are saying when it comes to laws. Clearly poems and other allegorical content are open for subjective opinion. It is apologists who often spend copious amounts of energy twisting, interpreting, and tap dancing what's often plainly written in order to come up with a harmonious theology. The thousands of Christian denominations prove this. This very OP proves this.

God demanded his people keep the Sabbath. Which day is that for Jews? Which day is that for Christians? Has God changed His mind at some point?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm I have two responses to that..

A. That is your opinion, which is subjective.

B. Christianity could still be true regardless of how easy/difficult it is to understand the Scriptures.
In the "anything is possible" sense, sure. Christianity could be true. The trouble is, find two Christians who can tell you exactly what Christianity actually means. Most of them disagree on various things so saying "Christianity might be true" could also mean that every single Christian on earth right now could be wrong as NONE of them are actual "Christians" in the sense that they are following all the correct laws of the god of the Bible. At this point, saying that becomes meaningless.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm So you are saying it's not possible for your god to make things clear for everyone? That's odd, I thought this god was all powerful and all knowing.
According to the Bible, God did make it clear to/for everyone...by creating the world and everything in it (Romans 1:20).
Your own OP defeats your argument. If it was clear, why are you having this discussion? This is a pretty basic rule in the Bible. Talk to a practicing Jew if the Mosaic law is unclear.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm That seems entirely wrong. How would any given person know it's actually clear to them? Especially when another person, with a different interpretation also thinks it's clear. Seems we have an issue that only the god could resolve.
Some things are clear, some things not so clear. But we live, learn, study, and pray. We let the Holy Spirit guide us to the truth, and when that happens, God is resolving it.
Great, please list out all the things that are clear then (in broad categories is fine). i.e. are the laws of God clear? This very OP seems to remove that category, one of the most important one would think.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm So, we have a case were you, a committed Christian who is trying very hard to understand, possibly wrong about what your god actually means. That sounds like a major failure in communication and that can only rest on the god, not on you, me, or any human that is supposedly the creation of this god.
That, OR, maybe I need to partake in more Bible studies, prayer, and meditation. Maybe its not God, maybe its me.
This is just typical "Christian-speak". God can NEVER be the problem. God created the universe and everything in it, created us, created the rules, created our capacity for understanding, and on it goes. Yet it's our fault if we can't clearly understand a few basic rules to live by. Right.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm If you want to take the position that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true, factual, and correct, then buckle up, you may have a rough ride ahead. You might want to have a hard look at Leviticus. One example:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
19 You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.
Sounds like you better not have a garden with more than one kind of vegetable or put any clothes on that aren't 100% the same material. Have you started following that? If not, you can't turn around and start quoting 1 John at me. The above is Law, the musings of the author of 1 John seem less important in relation.
Most of that stuff, I don't do anyway.
Most? Shouldn't it be all? Why would you knowingly break God's law? I understand the occasional slip if your wife buys you the wrong underwear, but this answer is pretty telling. I also only gave one common example. Going through the entire Bible and sorting out all of God's law and then following it shouldn't be an exercise is relentless praying, Bible studies, and wondering if you are missing anything. It should be a simple task unless God is trying to trip us up.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm Well, according to that scripture, you are a liar so why should I take your opinion into account? We also have the issue that you are now quoting Paul, not Jesus. Are you a Christian or a follower of Paul?
Ok, and since I am a liar, don't follow me; follow Jesus.
If I could sort out the actual Jesus from the obvious religious propaganda built around his name, I might be able to consider that. I certainly tried in the past for quite some time. When it became clear to me I was attempting to chase after the words of men, I ejected.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm I do get the pizza point. However, there is generally no psychological trauma or the loss of life involved in choosing a pizza topping.

It is not subjective that killing another human causes the person doing the killing psychological trauma. Ask anyone who has been to war and had to kill. It is also not subjective that ending life, ends the life AND causes loss among those who are left.

Apparently the god written about in the Bible has no concern for those left behind. Not for their grief at all the slaughter, or the trauma caused to them by witnessing and/or taking part in it.
Hmm. When someone loses their life, we call it "death", right?

So, "death" is a name, right?

Guess what?

Jesus is the name above every name. (Heb 1:4, Col 2:9).

Jesus is not only above death, but he conquered it.

And besides, God can easily restore life..in fact, all of our lives will be restored.

What did Jesus say? John 11:25-26

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.

Just sayin. :D
What you just said had nothing to do with my point. It sounds like pointless preaching. You did not address the trauma to those that do the killing for God or those that witness the killing caused by God (angels wiping out every first born son).

Just because a child CAN squash a bug doesn't mean he SHOULD squash it if he can simply move it off his lawn chair and put it back on a plant. Just because God CAN kill and ask people to kill for Him, doesn't mean there aren't less traumatic solutions. When bloodthirsty men are allowed to define god, we see the result.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm My plan had no slaughter, no trauma associated with killing, no dying whatsoever. My plan is factually 'better' for any humans involved left behind to deal with all the killing. The Bible plan is filled with needless bloodshed.
Rapper and businessman 50 Cent (a person I look up to)

"Sunny days wouldn't be special, if it wasn't for rain."

"Joy wouldn't feel so good, if it wasn't for pain."


Going through the tough times only makes you appreciate the good times even more.
What?

That's ridiculous on so many levels. Using that level of logic, God should be torturing every single human in the most excruciating way possible from the moment they are born. Only then could they truly appreciate, to the maximum, the joy of death.

It's no wonder I left Christianity with these horrible attempts at apologetics being used to sweep the atrocities of the Bible god under the carpet. It's par for the course and I know it's coming, but I cringe every time I see it. Makes me so happy I tossed the rose colored glasses in the trash.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:02 pm An actual god's ways, yes. I would agree. However, when I can tell that something was written based on the mind of men rather than the mind of an actual god, I reject it. It's actually one of the few things that is clear in the Bible. The hand of man on the supposed description of a god.
Please clarify.
You're kidding right? What do you think my entire response has been so far?

In short, I would expect an actual god to be clear, concise, and not do clearly human acts. Problems should be solved in logical ways and achieve their goals in a clear manner. Humans should not be in a constant state of confusion about what they should be doing.

After reading the entire Bible, the above fails on every level for the god described. An actual god may exist (and part of me actually hopes one does), but if it's the one as fully described in the Bible, I can't imagine how it would reconcile the contradictory, slaughter happy, war happy, often ridiculous solution using, character the Bible portrays. If I was standing in front of a god, I would almost feel the need to apologize for the ridiculous caricature that some humans decided to paint it with.

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