#1 Jesus on hell

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

#1 Jesus on hell

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #311

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:51 pm The fate of true believers is twofold. One group of 144,000 will go to heaven and rule with Jesus during the Thousand Years. The other group, of innumerable people who stay on Earth and go through the Great Tribulation, will live in Paradise on Earth forever. During the Millennial Reign millions if not billions of people will be resurrected back to the earth. Those who have believed will be brought up to date, and those who didn't know anything about the truth will be instructed. They will all have the privilege of, hopefully, standing on the side of God and Jesus when Satan is let loose out of the abyss. Those who choose to go with Satan will be annihilated along with him and his demons. Those who stood on Jehovah's side will "come alive" and live forever on the earth.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)
All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Jesus was resurrected first:
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)
The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all deceased Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming." The Second Coming is described in Revelation chapter nineteen:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:11-13)
Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)
At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings into the spiritual Kingdom of God.

All of these resurrected in the first resurrection along with those believers who were alive at the Second Coming will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves and face judgment.

The born again believers will participate in the judgment and will then rule over the earth for ever under the leadership of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #312

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #311]

So how do you figure God would assign MILLIONS of Christians to rule with Christ in heaven? And who would they be ruling over? Can you make that clear?

Isn't the point of Christ's sacrifice to give humans back the right to live on the earth forever (which Adam and Eve were meant to do before they rebelled)?

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #313

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:57 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #311]

So how do you figure God would assign MILLIONS of Christians to rule with Christ in heaven? And who would they be ruling over? Can you make that clear?
I do not know where you got that idea.

Jesus is presently in heaven preparing a place for us believers:
I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)
When our place is ready, we are not going to it, Jesus will bring it back to earth for us upon His return:
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:1-2)
Jesus has been preparing our new earth and its associated surroundings for the past two thousand years. He is bringing His new creation back to the earth when He returns and Christians will be with Jesus for eternity. "That where I am, there ye may be also."

The earth is not presently part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It is basically a colony which has rebelled under Satan and some of his angels and broken away from the kingdom. In fact, we are instructed in the Lord's prayer to pray for the Earth to become part of the Kingdom of Heaven:
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)
Indeed, the kingdoms of this world will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven:
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)
The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan.

And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?
The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

The Lord shall reign for ever... (Psalm 146:10)

And they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)
And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?
We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)
And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)
Jesus will locate His tabernacle to rule the earth in the holy city of new Jerusalem.

Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever? On the earth!

I know nothing of millions of Christians ruling with Jesus from Heaven.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:57 pm Isn't the point of Christ's sacrifice to give humans back the right to live on the earth forever (which Adam and Eve were meant to do before they rebelled)?
No. Humans cannot individually live forever because we are mortal physical beings.

Likewise, we cannot live forever on the earth together either. At the present rate, we will decimate the only planet known to sustain human life within a very short time period.

Mankind was created to eventually replace the original angels which were created to rule over the earth.

These original angels were created directly as spiritual beings. Satan and his followers desired more power, so they rebelled. Their rebellion caused the earth to become without form, void, and dark. God returned, re-created the earth to its good condition, and created mankind a little lower that the angels. Mankind is mortal, but is given the opportunity to become equal unto the angels through their own personal choice.

Jesus will eventually become the everlasting ruler of the earth.

Humans willing to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will rule over the earth jointly under Jesus, but not as humans. Human believers will be born again as angelic immortal spiritual bodied beings into the Kingdom of God.

This will allow them to rule forever and ever.

That is the point and purpose of mankind and Jesus.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #314

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #313]

Your understanding is very interesting indeed. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure you have been apprised of how I look at the ascention of Christians into the air to be with Christ, and that he will rule over the earth from heaven, which you do not agree with.

Also, before I travel on, I noticed that you do not mention anything about Jesus' God and Father. The most important thing to Jesus was that his Father's name would be sanctified and vindicated, finally. The first thing he mentions in the Lord's Prayer is "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name." That was Jesus' focus, throughout his ministry on down to today. You concentrate on Jesus' rule forever. Can you tell me what you understand about I Corinthians 15: 24-28?

"Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing....When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

Jesus, after the Millennial Reign, will hand over the rule to Jehovah, Jesus' God and Father. Then Jehovah's name will be hallowed and His rule vindicated. He will be all things to everyone.

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #315

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #313]

Your understanding is very interesting indeed. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure you have been apprised of how I look at the
ascension of Christians into the air to be with Christ, and that he will rule over the earth from heaven, which you do not agree with.
Do you have any scripture to support your understanding that Christ will rule from heaven?
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pmAlso, before I travel on, I noticed that you do not mention anything about Jesus' God and Father. The most important thing to Jesus was that his Father's name would be sanctified and vindicated, finally.
In Genesis 1:1 the Word created the heaven and the earth and assigned a host of angels under the command of Lucifer to maintain His creation. But Lucifer (or the devil or Satan) and some of the angels under his control rebelled and left the earth to war against God in Heaven. As a result of their sin, the earth became without form, void, and dark. At that point, the earth had broken away from the Kingdom of God.

In Genesis 1:3, the Word returned, re-created the earth and created and assigned mankind to replenish the earth.

Man is being groomed to replace the original rebellious angels.

We are commanded to pray for the earth to once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Word will come again, defeat Satan, and become the ruler of the earth for ever and ever.

Upon the defeat of Satan by the Word, the entire Kingdom of God will be restored under God the Father!

While the Lord Jesus will rule on the earth with the newly created angels, His God and Father rules over the entire kingdom from Heaven.

Jesus' mission was to defeat Satan, thus regaining power over the earth, and restore the earth to His Father's Kingdom of Heaven.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pmCan you tell me what you understand about I Corinthians 15: 24-28?
I Corinthians 15

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
These verses confirm my explanation above. Basically that at the end, the Son will come, defeat the current ruler of the earth, and present it to His father.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm Jesus, after the Millennial Reign, will hand over the rule to Jehovah, Jesus' God and Father. Then Jehovah's name will be hallowed and His rule vindicated. He will be all things to everyone.
That's basically correct. Jesus will reign over the earth forever. The earth is part of the Kingdom of God.

And God reigns over the entire Kingdom. Whatever that entails.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #316

Post by JoeyKnothead »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm ...
The most important thing to Jesus was that his Father's name would be sanctified and vindicated, finally. The first thing he mentions in the Lord's Prayer is "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name." That was Jesus' focus, throughout his ministry on down to today.
...
Serious question...

If God's name is to "be hallowed", how does that square with the Christians' concentration on Jesus? (Like instead of "Christian", "Godian"? Poor word there, but it's close as I could get and kinda make sense)

Does the worship of Jesus kinda put God aside?

I don't wish to debate this issue, I just seek to understand the thinking.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #317

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #313]

Your understanding is very interesting indeed. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure you have been apprised of how I look at the
ascension of Christians into the air to be with Christ, and that he will rule over the earth from heaven, which you do not agree with.
Do you have any scripture to support your understanding that Christ will rule from heaven?
How can you support your idea that Christ will rule from the earth? Because it says in Revelation that the Kingdom will come down out of heaven and God will be with us? Revelation is largely symbolic.....I think we've all seen that. It is also symbolic that the New Jerusalem comes to the earth; it "comes" as to influence the earth while still in heaven. It is just as God was "with" the Israelites when coming out of Egypt (Isaiah 30:20,21; Jeremiah 14:9; Psalm 78:60) and Jesus will be "with" us the same way he is NOW with us---from heaven. (Matthew 18:20)

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #318

Post by onewithhim »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:24 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm ...
The most important thing to Jesus was that his Father's name would be sanctified and vindicated, finally. The first thing he mentions in the Lord's Prayer is "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name." That was Jesus' focus, throughout his ministry on down to today.
...
Serious question...

If God's name is to "be hallowed", how does that square with the Christians' concentration on Jesus? (Like instead of "Christian", "Godian"? Poor word there, but it's close as I could get and kinda make sense)

Does the worship of Jesus kinda put God aside?

I don't wish to debate this issue, I just seek to understand the thinking.
Yes, the worship of Jesus as God Almighty does put God (the Father, Jehovah) aside. You got that right!

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #319

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:35 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #313]

Your understanding is very interesting indeed. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure you have been apprised of how I look at the
ascension of Christians into the air to be with Christ, and that he will rule over the earth from heaven, which you do not agree with.
Do you have any scripture to support your understanding that Christ will rule from heaven?
How can you support your idea that Christ will rule from the earth? Because it says in Revelation that the Kingdom will come down out of heaven and God will be with us? Revelation is largely symbolic.....I think we've all seen that. It is also symbolic that the New Jerusalem comes to the earth; it "comes" as to influence the earth while still in heaven. It is just as God was "with" the Israelites when coming out of Egypt (Isaiah 30:20,21; Jeremiah 14:9; Psalm 78:60) and Jesus will be "with" us the same way he is NOW with us---from heaven. (Matthew 18:20)
After the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the Earth will once again become part of the kingdom of Heaven:
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)
So Jesus will come again, defeat Satan, and the Earth will rejoin the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus will then rule the Earth from new Jerusalem for ever and ever:
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)
New Jerusalem is part of what Jesus has been preparing for us over the past two thousand years. He will bring it down from heaven upon His return.

Believers shall reign over the earth with Jesus:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)
Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place Jesus and us forever and ever? It appears that we will all be on the earth!

However, we will be spirits and man does not know much at all about the spiritual world. God is omnipresent. We may be also, or some subset of omnipresent.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #320

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:51 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:35 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #313]

Your understanding is very interesting indeed. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure you have been apprised of how I look at the
ascension of Christians into the air to be with Christ, and that he will rule over the earth from heaven, which you do not agree with.
Do you have any scripture to support your understanding that Christ will rule from heaven?
How can you support your idea that Christ will rule from the earth? Because it says in Revelation that the Kingdom will come down out of heaven and God will be with us? Revelation is largely symbolic.....I think we've all seen that. It is also symbolic that the New Jerusalem comes to the earth; it "comes" as to influence the earth while still in heaven. It is just as God was "with" the Israelites when coming out of Egypt (Isaiah 30:20,21; Jeremiah 14:9; Psalm 78:60) and Jesus will be "with" us the same way he is NOW with us---from heaven. (Matthew 18:20)
After the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the Earth will once again become part of the kingdom of Heaven:
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)
So Jesus will come again, defeat Satan, and the Earth will rejoin the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus will then rule the Earth from new Jerusalem for ever and ever:
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)
New Jerusalem is part of what Jesus has been preparing for us over the past two thousand years. He will bring it down from heaven upon His return.
Don't you know that "New Jerusalem" is the Bride of Christ? It's not a literal city. You can see it in the scripture you just quoted: John saw new Jerusalem "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." The Bride of Christ is all those who go to heaven to rule with him. It can't be brought down in a literal sense because its symbolic description says it is a perfect cube that would reach many miles out into space if it was literally placed on the earth. New Jerusalem is actually the Bride of Christ and will remain in heaven with him and with Jehovah.

Post Reply