#1 Jesus on hell

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Wootah
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#1 Jesus on hell

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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #301

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:47 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:58 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:49 am Yes, of course Satan cannot stop the spread of the good news to the nations.
Right. He's totally bound from doing so, which is exactly what John says in Revelation 20:1-3.
Satan stops mankind from spreading the good news to all the nations.

Satan will be bound when the good news is spread by an angel sent from god:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6)

If God had to send an angel to preach the gospel to all nations, then mankind failed to preach the gospel to all nations.

Why did mankind fail?

Because most Christians believe that mankind is born with an immortal soul and cannot perish as the scriptures clearly state.

Since we live forever, we must live somewhere. Christians proclaim they spend eternity in heaven while all others burn in hell forever.

Churches which preach that are not spreading the good news of the gospel to anyone. Thus we fail to fulfill the Great Commission.

Why do the churches believe this?

Because Satan told us that we live forever:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Have a nice day.
I agree with a lot of what you say, except when you say that Satan has stopped the spreading of the Good News. If left to most religions of this world, that would be true. But Jehovah's Witnesses have been spreading the Good News and are now doing so, all around the world, in over 240 lands. Satan has tried to stop us, but he has been unsuccessful.

What exactly is the Good News? Jesus said, "The Good News of the Kingdom will be preached to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14) Who is preaching the truth about the Kingdom---a real government by Christ? Not anyone except JWs. Most everyone else says that the Kingdom is in a person's heart. But that's not what ISAIAH 9:6,7 and DANIEL 2:44 indicate to us. These verses are basically ignored by all religions except Jehovah's Witnesses. And they are proclaiming this all around the world.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #302

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #272]

The angel in heaven is helping those Christians on Earth to spread the Good News. Angels can do so even though still in heaven, just as Jesus is "with us" even though he is in heaven at the right hand of the Father. (Matthew 28:20; Acts 5:31)

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #303

Post by myth-one.com »

Speaking of the devil, onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm
Yes, he will be (when thrown into the LOF) annihilated and that way be unable to do anything at all. In the meantime he is now fully able to do his dirty deeds and he is obviously doing so around the globe. We look forward to the time when he is bound in the abyss, during the Millennial Reign.
God cannot annihilate a being He created to live forever. The devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

The fire will not torment him. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity. But he cannot be killed because he is an immortal spiritual bodied being.
Onewithhim wrote:The angel in heaven is helping those Christians on Earth to spread the Good News. Angels can do so even though still in heaven, just as Jesus is "with us" even though he is in heaven at the right hand of the Father. (Matthew 28:20; Acts 5:31)
The angel sent to spread the good news to all nations occurs near the end of time. So up until that time, Christians had failed to fulfill the Great Commission.

I do not know much about the JW's. But yes, it is correct that the Kingdom of God is a real government. Good for you guys.
Onewithhim wrote:
What exactly is the Good News? Jesus said, "The Good News of the Kingdom will be preached to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14) Who is preaching the truth about the Kingdom---a real government by Christ? Not anyone except JWs. Most everyone else says that the Kingdom is in a person's heart. But that's not what ISAIAH 9:6,7 and DANIEL 2:44 indicate to us. These verses are basically ignored by all religions except Jehovah's Witnesses. And they are proclaiming this all around the world.
While that's good, can you state the fate of believers and non-believers?

What does the Good News portend for each of those two groups?

Thanks

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #304

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:05 pm But he cannot be killed because he is an immortal spiritual bodied being.
Immortality (as in being indestructible) is only associated in scripture as a reward for faithfulness. There are no scriptures in the bible that attribute immortality to Satan. The assumption that all spirits are immortal is not one founded in scripture.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #305

Post by myth-one.com »

Referring to the devil or Satan, myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:05 pm
But he cannot be killed because he is an immortal spiritual bodied being.

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:13 pm
Immortality (as in meaning indestructible) is only associated in scripture as a reward for faithfulness. There are no scriptures in the bible that attribute immortality to Satan.

Here's one:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:13 pm
The assumption that all spirits are immortal is not one founded in scripture.

We can probably agree that God, The Word, and The Holy Spirit are immortal.

That leaves all the angels.

Speaking of believers who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

If born again believers are equal unto the angels because they cannot die, then the angels are immortal.

So all spiritual bodied beings (God, The Word, The Holy Spirit, and all the angels) are immortal according to the scriptures.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #306

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:33 pm
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
This is a symbolic picture not to be taken literally: The lake of fire represents DEATH ( the very opposite of immortality) and the "torment"* here is symbolic of being kept in the aformentioned condition.

* jailers were in bible times called tormentors




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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #307

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:26 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:33 pm
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
This is a symbolic picture not to be taken literally:
Well it can't be literal because it contradicts your statement as follows:
JehovahsWitness wrote:There are no scriptures in the bible that attribute immortality to Satan.
Is that the best you can come up with?

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #308

Post by PinSeeker »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:58 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:49 am Yes, of course Satan cannot stop the spread of the good news to the nations.
Right. He's totally bound from doing so, which is exactly what John says in Revelation 20:1-3.
onewithhim wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:49 am When in the abyss, he will not be doing anything.
No, but when he's in the "lake of fire," he will be exerting no influence on anyone here in the new heaven and new earth. There, he will be in torment for eternity (day and night forever).

Grace and peace to you.
Yes, he will be (when thrown into the LOF) annihilated...
Not annihilated. If that were the case, he would not be tormented any more at all, much less day and night forever and ever, as Revelation 20:10 is very clear on.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm In the meantime he is now fully able to do his dirty deeds and he is obviously doing so around the globe.
He is not able to deceive the nations any longer, not able to stop the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth. If he were, then Jesus's command, to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that He has commanded, would have been useless.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm We look forward to the time when he is bound in the abyss, during the Millennial Reign.
We look forward to the time when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and the partial hardening now on the Israel (ethnic Jews) removed. Then Satan will be loosed from his bound state for a short time, and then Jesus will return, execute the final Judgment, and eternity ensue. This will all happen in short order, but when we do not know... but that is no excuse not to be ready; the millennial reign may be brought to a close very soon, even by our standards.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm The angel in heaven is helping those Christians on Earth to spread the Good News.
No, that's the Holy Spirit's job. The angel, along with the other two mentioned in the next few verses of Revelation 14, is announcing the hour of God's judgment and the eternal punishment of Satan's followers. is proclaiming it, as Revelation 14:6 makes very clear, and "keeping it," or protecting it, as it were. But the fact that he is proclaiming it is in no way to infer that God's people, with the help of the Holy Spirit, have failed in the Great Commission issued by Christ Jesus after His resurrection.

Grace and peace to you.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #309

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:05 pm
Speaking of the devil, onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:07 pm
Yes, he will be (when thrown into the LOF) annihilated and that way be unable to do anything at all. In the meantime he is now fully able to do his dirty deeds and he is obviously doing so around the globe. We look forward to the time when he is bound in the abyss, during the Millennial Reign.
God cannot annihilate a being He created to live forever. The devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

The fire will not torment him. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity. But he cannot be killed because he is an immortal spiritual bodied being.
Onewithhim wrote:The angel in heaven is helping those Christians on Earth to spread the Good News. Angels can do so even though still in heaven, just as Jesus is "with us" even though he is in heaven at the right hand of the Father. (Matthew 28:20; Acts 5:31)
The angel sent to spread the good news to all nations occurs near the end of time. So up until that time, Christians had failed to fulfill the Great Commission.

I do not know much about the JW's. But yes, it is correct that the Kingdom of God is a real government. Good for you guys.
Onewithhim wrote:
What exactly is the Good News? Jesus said, "The Good News of the Kingdom will be preached to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14) Who is preaching the truth about the Kingdom---a real government by Christ? Not anyone except JWs. Most everyone else says that the Kingdom is in a person's heart. But that's not what ISAIAH 9:6,7 and DANIEL 2:44 indicate to us. These verses are basically ignored by all religions except Jehovah's Witnesses. And they are proclaiming this all around the world.
While that's good, can you state the fate of believers and non-believers?

What does the Good News portend for each of those two groups?

Thanks
The fate of true believers is twofold. One group of 144,000 will go to heaven and rule with Jesus during the Thousand Years. The other group, of innumerable people who stay on Earth and go through the Great Tribulation, will live in Paradise on Earth forever. During the Millennial Reign millions if not billions of people will be resurrected back to the earth. Those who have believed will be brought up to date, and those who didn't know anything about the truth will be instructed. They will all have the privilege of, hopefully, standing on the side of God and Jesus when Satan is let loose out of the abyss. Those who choose to go with Satan will be annihilated along with him and his demons. Those who stood on Jehovah's side will "come alive" and live forever on the earth.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #310

Post by onewithhim »

Any comments on post # 309?

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