#1 Jesus on hell

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#1 Jesus on hell

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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:04 am https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
...
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

...
How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
That does not seem to have word hell, therefore it may be about something else, especially when it is said here that soul and body are destroyed in hell:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [=Gehenna].
Matt. 10:28

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #3

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

Actually, verse 34 says the "...master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him." So the master did not actually do the torturing, but merely condemned him to the place of torture.

Even so, the parable is an earthly example, symbolic of hell has it is. I would still maintain that the torture in hell is self-inflicted and not literal. In other words, the experience of hell sure is -- or will be, for those who have not passed this world yet but whose eternal dwelling place will be hell -- torturous, because, once there, it is inescapable, and because of the full knowledge of having had every opportunity to avoid it and of what could have been had.

Otherwise, though, in answer to the premises and the question actually posed, it is indicative that annihilationism is not valid, that the punishment is eternal, is indicative of the judgement of hell, and fully supportive of traditional doctrine.

Grace and peace to everyone.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #4

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

What would you call what is happening when someone is tortured for eternity?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #5

Post by Wootah »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:15 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #1]

Actually, verse 34 says the "...master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him." So the master did not actually do the torturing, but merely condemned him to the place of torture.

Even so, the parable is an earthly example, symbolic of hell has it is. I would still maintain that the torture in hell is self-inflicted and not literal. In other words, the experience of hell sure is -- or will be, for those who have not passed this world yet but whose eternal dwelling place will be hell -- torturous, because, once there, it is inescapable, and because of the full knowledge of having had every opportunity to avoid it.

Otherwise, though, in answer to the premises and the question actually posed, it is indicative that annihilationism is not valid, that the punishment is eternal, is indicative of the judgement of hell, and fully supportive of traditional doctrine.

Grace and peace to everyone.
I love the notion of hell being a prison where the gates are open but the prisoners don't want to leave and hell is self-inflicted and as I argued in another thread I think a large part of the torture is the knowledge of what God is and what has been fully lost.

But yeah we agree - thank God. Let's find the next scripture in the next thread when I find time to make it.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #6

Post by Checkpoint »

Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:04 am https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
End of story? One that supports traditional doctrine?

As presented here, yes, it seems so.

In fact there is much more to the story, and it is much less supportive of traditional doctrine than is usually assumed.

Proverbs 18:17: The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

True, but this case is not about us posters, but about the One who does the final examination of the unbeliever, which we call "hell".
Last edited by Checkpoint on Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #7

Post by onewithhim »

Traditional doctrine completely avoids the facts of the matter, that "hell" is an abused term in many translations of the Bible. The King James Version translates three distinct things as the same thing. It renders....

Gehenna = "Hell"
Hades = "Hell"
Tartarus = "Hell"

All three are translated as "Hell" or "Hell-fire." But these are three distinct things! It is sad that readers have thought of them all as the same for at least 400 years. As a result, people have been confused as to what the particular verses mean.

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness

Gehenna simply means the garbage dump outside Jerusalem where refuse and criminals' bodies were thrown, to be consumed by the fire.

Tartarus is a diminished spiritual state that the demons found themselves in after they left heaven to marry human women.

You can see how messed up an understanding of "hell" is when all these things are translated as the same thing.


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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #8

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”
Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
It could be said to be, in a very general sense, "a judgment of hell". But in its specifics, it does not "support traditional doctrine".

In what way, or ways?

When looking at a verse, it is often helpful to scrutinise one or more key words by taking into account the Greek meaning in order to apply it accordingly.

In this case, of the word translated as "torturers".
HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 930 basanistḗs (from 928 /basanízō) – a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination – prison guard, torturer" (L & N, 1, 37.126).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS
NT 930: βασανιστής

βασανιστής, βασανιστου, ὁ (βασανίζω), one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack, an inquisitor, torturer, ((Antiphon, others); Demosthenes, p. 978, 11; Philo in Flacc. § 11 end; (de concupisc. § 1; quod omn. prob. book 16; Plutarch, an vitios. ad infel. suff. § 2)); used in Matthew 18:34 of a jailer (δεσμοφύλαξ basanistais, basanistaîs.)
What information are we given by these two sources about "the torturers", what their function was for, and how long it would need to last?

"The torturers" were: "a prison guard or jailer whose function was to torture prisoners by the use of the rack, as a phase of judicial examination".

Each torturer was thus "an inquisitor, one who elicits the truth".

How does this support, or not support, "traditional doctrine" of "the judgment of hell"?

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #9

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:04 am https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?



This quite clearly is not a description of hell, but rather a lesson on behavior of the brethren within the kingdom of heaven. The very first verse of the quoted passage supports this conclusion. Peter asks about forgiving a brother not an unbeliever. In fact, throughout the passage neither hell nor unbelievers are mentioned.

Verse 23 also makes the context clear: "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like..." Once again it is clear that Jesus is describing the kingdom of heaven, not hell. Also note that the the king wanted to settle accounts with his servants, not his enemies.

Verse 28 clarifies that fact as well, "“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants..." Note the term "fellow servants." This is a fellow follower of Christ in the kingdom of heaven, not an unbeliever.

Verse 31 once again uses the same term, "fellow servants."

Verse 33 also uses "fellow servant."

Verse 34 reveals the fact that this debt can and will be resolved once the servant paid his debt. This is certainly not true of the traditional view of hell.

Verse 35 reinforces this once again by using the term "brother."

All of these details add up to the obvious conclusion that this is a discussion of behavior amongst the citizens of the kingdom of heaven not a description of hell. This is a more detailed description of what Jesus meant in the example prayer he gave to his disciples, "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."


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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #10

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:08 am [Replying to Wootah in post #1]
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”
Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
It could be said to be, in a very general sense, "a judgment of hell". But in its specifics, it does not "support traditional doctrine".

In what way, or ways?

When looking at a verse, it is often helpful to scrutinise one or more key words by taking into account the Greek meaning in order to apply it accordingly.

In this case, of the word translated as "torturers".
HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 930 basanistḗs (from 928 /basanízō) – a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination – prison guard, torturer" (L & N, 1, 37.126).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS
NT 930: βασανιστής

βασανιστής, βασανιστου, ὁ (βασανίζω), one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack, an inquisitor, torturer, ((Antiphon, others); Demosthenes, p. 978, 11; Philo in Flacc. § 11 end; (de concupisc. § 1; quod omn. prob. book 16; Plutarch, an vitios. ad infel. suff. § 2)); used in Matthew 18:34 of a jailer (δεσμοφύλαξ basanistais, basanistaîs.)
What information are we given by these two sources about "the torturers", what their function was for, and how long it would need to last?

"The torturers" were: "a prison guard or jailer whose function was to torture prisoners by the use of the rack, as a phase of judicial examination".

Each torturer was thus "an inquisitor, one who elicits the truth".

How does this support, or not support, "traditional doctrine" of "the judgment of hell"?
Good points. The "torturers" simply kept their prisoners from being able to go about their business, bound to one narrow spot, if you will. That would be torture for anyone....just not being able to function. That is how the "torment" of the Devil and his minions is to be understood. They are not physically tortured in flames forever, but are made to be devoid of any action---obliterated. They will not be able to carry on their evil business because they will be annihilated forever.

.

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