#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[myth-one.com]

At the end of the millennium, deceased unbelievers will certainly be resurrected as humans, but at the same time deceased believers are, at Jesus's one second coming. Then the Judgment will occur, unbelievers sent away (Revelation 20:7-15), the kingdom is fully ushered in, and eternity begins. As Jesus says in John 5, the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear (the Son of Man's -- Jesus Himself) voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. There is no 1000 years (or even 1000 milliseconds) in between the two, it is all part of the same event, the one physical, second resurrection.

Here's what the Bible states:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All of mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died, will be resurrected or made alive again.

So there is an order to the resurrections. Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred.

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection will occur at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

This first resurrection for deceased believers is detailed in the Book of Revelation:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)

All deceased Christians will be resurrected at this first resurrection. Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet them in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Jesus:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

Christianity divides mankind into two groups, believers and nonbelievers. All deceased believers were resurrected at the Second Coming.

The only dead humans remaining to be resurrected are the dead nonbelievers. They will be resurrected after the Millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

=================================

There is one Second Coming at which believers will be resurrected. That is called the "first resurrection."

Nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.

[PinSeeker]

Thanks for quoting the Scriptures, myth-one, but there's no need, as I know them well. In a nutshell, here's what you can't seem to understand:

The first resurrection is a one-time event for each person who at his or her appointed time is born again of the Holy Spirit. The first resurrection occurs IN THIS LIFE for each individually (if it does, as not all are saved). But it is not a one-time event in the sense that all who experience it all experience it together at the same time. The first resurrection, myth-one, occurs on an individual basis IN THE LIFE THEY LIVE ON EARTH, and it happens for all OVER THE COURSE of the "thousand years," which is not a literal thousand-year period, but the WHOLE of history up to the time that Jesus returns.

As Jesus clarifies in John 5:28-29, ALL the deceased are resurrected at His return, some to life and some to judgment. Revelation 20:12-13 is a restatement of this. After this second, general, physical resurrection, believers judged in verse 12 and unbelievers judged in verse 13. All the dead are resurrected and judged according to what they have done.

There is no mere thousand year period after Jesus's return, but only eternity, which will never end.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

According to the scriptures as inspired by God:

1. Every person who ever died will be resurrected.
2. But there will be an order to the resurrections.
3. Christ was resurrected first.
4. All deceased believers in Christ will be resurrected next at His Second Coming.
5. All deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected a 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

According to PinSeeker, the resurrection will be as follows:

1. The first resurrection is a one-time event for each person.
2. The first resurrection occurs in this lifetime for each individual.
3. But it is not a one-time event in the sense that all who experience it all experience it together at the same time.
4. The first resurrection, occurs on an individual basis IN THE LIFE THEY LIVE ON EARTH, and it happens for all OVER THE COURSE of the "thousand years."
5. The 1,000 years is not a thousand years.
6. The thousand years is the WHOLE of history up to the time that Jesus returns.
7. There is no mere thousand year period after Jesus's return, but only eternity.
8. And eternity will never end.

I'm not sure from where or from whom PinSeeker's received his inspiration.

==================================================

We have debated this same topic repeatedly in the past. At those times I chose to agree with God and His inspired scriptures.

I take that same stand today.

[PinSeeker]

Ah yes...

According to the scriptures as inspired by God:

Ah yes, let's take these one by one...

[*]Every person who ever died will be resurrected.

Yes, but this is not what I've been understanding you to say. You seem to be changing your tune, here, but good on ya if that's the case...

[*]But there will be an order to the resurrections.

There are not multiple physical resurrections. Well, there was Jesus's, which already occurred, of course. But only one for everyone else (except those still alive at the time of Jesus's return).

[*]Christ was resurrected first.

Yes he was.

[*]All deceased believers in Christ will be resurrected next at His Second Coming.

And unbelievers. Revelation 20:11-15 is quite clear.

[*]All deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected a 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

Absolutely not. And the end of the "thousand years," the complete church age, lasting from Pentecost to Christ's return (Revelation 20:4-6, specifically), all the deceased will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:12-13, specifically).

According to PinSeeker, the resurrection will be as follows:

Ah yes, let's see what words you try to put into my mouth this time. Maybe you won't, but I'm not optimistic...

[*]The first resurrection is a one-time event for each person.
[*]The first resurrection occurs in this lifetime for each individual.
[*]But it is not a one-time event in the sense that all who experience it all experience it together at the same time.
[*]The first resurrection, occurs on an individual basis IN THE LIFE THEY LIVE ON EARTH, and it happens for all OVER THE COURSE of the "thousand years."
[*]The 1,000 years is not a thousand years.
[*]The thousand years is the WHOLE of history up to the time that Jesus returns.
[*]There is no mere thousand year period after Jesus's return, but only eternity.
[*]And eternity will never end.

Color me surprised. All very accurate. It's basically correct, but the fifth item here ("The 1,000 years is not a thousand years") needs to be clarified a bit in that the thousand years of Revelation 20 is not not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but symbolic -- as Revelation is chock full of symbols of reality but not reality itself -- the very Biblical enumeration of the complete completeness, if you will, of God's time. The complete time it takes -- which only God knows -- for all Gentile believers to come to Christ and then the removal of the partial hardening that has come upon Israel. But good on ya!

I'm not sure from where or from whom PinSeeker's received his inspiration.

Well only the writers of the Bible were inspired. I just take them (and thus God) at their (His) word (Word).

We have debated this same topic repeatedly in the past.

That we have.

At those times I chose to agree with God and His inspired scriptures.

See, that's the problem. Not that you "chose to agree with God," because that in itself would be a good thing, but that you agree with, well, things, that are quite different than what God and His inspired Scriptures have said.

I take that same stand today.

Right on, and that's too bad. But, that you misunderstand certain things does not disqualify you as or make you less of a Christian than anybody else.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Every person who ever died will be resurrected. But there will be an order to the resurrections.

There are not multiple physical resurrections.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All of mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die their first "death."

Likewise, every human who ever died, will be resurrected or made alive again.

But there will be an order to the resurrections. That order is Christ first, then secondly will be Christians who will be resurrected at His Second Coming.

The only remaining group is that of deceased nonbelievers.

All deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected a literal thousand years after the Second Coming:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

Thus all of the dead will be resurrected -- but in this order:

1. Christ
2. believers at the Second Coming
3. and nonbelievers a thousand years after the Second Coming

[PinSeeker]

Every person who ever died will be resurrected. But there will be an order to the resurrections.

There are not multiple physical resurrections.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All of mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die their first "death."

Likewise, every human who ever died, will be resurrected or made alive again.

But there will be an order to the resurrections. That order is Christ first, then secondly will be Christians who will be resurrected at His Second Coming.

The only remaining group is that of deceased nonbelievers.

All deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected a literal thousand years after the Second Coming:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

Thus all of the dead will be resurrected -- but in this order:

1. Christ
2. believers at the Second Coming
3. and nonbelievers a thousand years after the Second Coming

You continue to conflate the two types of resurrection -- spiritual and physical. You know, you're the one who's so big on the physical body and the spiritual body (which you also misunderstand; they are not mutually exclusive) -- and cram it all under the physical heading. No, again:

1. physical resurrection of Jesus (2000+ years ago)

2. spiritual resurrection in Christ for each believer at his/her appointed time over the course of the fullness of the time of the Gentiles and the removal of the partial hardening (Ephesians 2:5-6; Revelation 20:4-6)... This is the first resurrection. The thousand years is literal in that it is a real time period, but symbolic in that it represents not literalistically one thousand 365-day time periods but rather the fullness and completeness of God's time, which we cannot know the exact length of. In the same way, in reference to Psalm 50:10, all the cattle on all hills are God's, not just the ones on, literalistically, one thousand hills.

3. physical resurrection of ALL the dead at Christ's return, just before ALL are judged according to what they have done (John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:12-13); this is the second resurrection.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

You continue to conflate the two types of resurrection -- spiritual and physical. You know, you're the one who's so big on the physical body and the spiritual body (which you also misunderstand; they are not mutually exclusive)

Jesus Christ states that spiritual and physical bodies are mutually exclusive:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

So does Paul when he states that that the physical body comes first, and the spiritual comes afterward:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

I'll have to side with Jesus and Paul on this issue.

[PinSeeker]

Jesus Christ states that spiritual and physical bodies are mutually exclusive:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

Nope. Absolutely not:

Number 1, He's showing His disciples that He is not a ghost or apparition, but very much resurrected physically.

Number 2, are you saying that Jesus was not, before His resurrection, spiritual, or more correctly, of the Holy Spirit (as well as the Father of course)? Surely not...

So does Paul when he states that that the physical body comes first, and the spiritual comes afterward:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

Well, yes, but not in the mutually exclusive way that you suppose. The natural is joined by the spiritual for those who believe at the point they are converted (born again of the Spirit), and this happens in part (because we are still sinners, but redeemed) during this life and in full (no longer sinners) when Jesus returns.

I'll have to side with Jesus and Paul on this issue.

Well that's good that you want to side with them, but you first have to understand them.

[myth-one.com]

Jesus Christ states that spiritual and physical bodies are mutually exclusive:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

Nope. Absolutely not:

Number 1, He's showing His disciples that He is not a ghost or apparition, but very much resurrected physically.

There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

He's showing His disciples that He is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus does have flesh and bones, thus He is not a spirit.

Number 2, are you saying that Jesus was not, before His resurrection, spiritual, or more correctly, of the Holy Spirit (as well as the Father of course)? Surely not...

Jesus was a man before and after His resurrection.

So does Paul when he states that that the physical body comes first, and the spiritual comes afterward:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

Well, yes, but not in the mutually exclusive way that you suppose. The natural is joined by the spiritual for those who believe at the point they are converted (born again of the Spirit), and this happens in part (because we are still sinners, but redeemed) during this life and in full (no longer sinners) when Jesus returns.

Being "joined" by the spiritual doesn't make one a spirit.

You can use the same tests that Jesus suggested to His disciples to determine if you are a spirit.

Observe if you have hands and feet. If so, handle yourself and see if you have flesh and bones.

If so, you are not a spirit.

And if you are not a spirit, then you have not yet been born again of the Spirit, because that born of the Spirit is spirit.

[PinSeeker]

There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Right, but the two are not mutually exclusive. In this life, the physical body can house the natural nature (that OF the flesh -- the sinful nature) and the spiritual nature (that OF the Holy Spirit, born of the Spirit) at the same time... and does, for those of us who have been born again of the Holy Spirit. In eternity, our physical bodies will only possess the spiritual nature, without sin, because we will be just like Jesus.

He's showing His disciples that He is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus does have flesh and bones, thus He is not a spirit.

Right, but He is spiritual, even in the flesh -- OF God, because He is God -- even though He is very physical, with skin and bones.

Jesus was a man before and after His resurrection.

Right, and also God, so never a sinner. He was without sin, even though tempted in every way as we are. And one day we will be just like Him.

You can use the same tests that Jesus suggested to His disciples to determine if you are a spirit.

Well, right: not in the sense of being ghosts or immaterial, non-physical beings.

Observe if you have hands and feet. If so, handle yourself and see if you have flesh and bones. If so, you are not a spirit. And if you are not a spirit, then you have not yet been born again of the Spirit, because that born of the Spirit is spirit.

No, he or she born of the Spirit has a spiritual nature; it is in that sense that he or she has been born again, having until that point been spiritually dead (dead in his/her trespasses). This is the first resurrection, as Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:4-7...

• "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Grace and peace to you.