#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[myth-one.com]

I dont see the word "fail" in any of those scriptures.

What I see is:

1. The Gospel must be preached to all nations before the end of times can occur.
2. Christians are commanded to fulfill that work.
3. God sends an angel to preach the gospel to all nations shortly before the Second Coming.

1. Angels have historically been supporters of God's human servants as they fulfill their commission, not replacements.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6)

Looks like the angel is being sent to do the work.

In fact, it looks like those on the earth do not even know the everlasting gospel -- as the angel has to bring the gospel with him ("having the everlasting gospel").

2. If Jesus is with his disciples until the end of the system, any their "failure" on their part would also be his - which is impossible

Jesus is in heaven preparing our place. But He cannot return with our place until the gospel has been preached to all the nations.

3. The bible indicates Jesus will commend his faithful servants upon his return for a job well done (Mat 25:22-23)[/indent]

OK.

Regardless of whether the angels finally assist or replace, Christians have the commission to preach and to keep doing so right up until the end of the system of things. Biblically success is not measured by results but by doing Gods will wholehearedly. Only God has the authority to pronouce their work a success or a failure and there is absolutely no scripture in the bible which states he will do the latter.

The commission is to preach the gospel, not simply to preach.

Revelation 14:6 indicates that Christians will not preach the gospel to all nations. If the angel was not sent to do so, the Second Coming and end of time could not occur!

If Christians did preach the gospel to all nations, why did it need to be done a second time by the angel?

[PinSeeker]

I dont see the word "fail" in any of those scriptures.

Right, well, he's inferring it from what Revelation 14:6 says, that "...another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people." He's saying that must mean that "those who dwell on earth" must have failed in their proclamation of the gospel. It's a terrible misunderstanding.

Even in the translation that he is quoting from, it says that the angel is "in the midst of heaven," which without question states beyond the shadow of a doubt that the angel is still in heaven and not, as it were, proclaiming the gospel to those on earth.

What should be taken from Revelation 14 is that, as I said in my previous post, the three angels of Revelation 14:6-13, together, issue a final solemn warning concerning the coming judgment and the necessity of repenting if one is to escape judgment. There is no literal angel literally sent by God at any point to fulfill the Great Commission. The Great Commission is not a prophecy but a command, a mandate and a commissioning given by Christ Jesus to His disciples... and by extension to us. The Great Commission is fulfilled through Christians by the power of God before Christ's Second Coming, as Christ Himself indicates in His issuing of the Great Commission itself, promising to be with us always.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[myth-one.com]

I dont see the word "fail" in any of those scriptures.

Right, well, he's inferring it from what Revelation 14:6 says, that "...another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people." He's saying that must mean that "those who dwell on earth" must have failed in their proclamation of the gospel. It's a terrible misunderstanding.

Even in the translation that he is quoting from, it says that the angel is "in the midst of heaven," which without question states beyond the shadow of a doubt that the angel is still in heaven and not, as it were, proclaiming the gospel to those on earth.

Revelation 14:6 King James Version:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

It's not "an eternal gospel" as you wrote!

It's the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth."

So wherever the angel is, the destination of that everlasting gospel which he carries is the earth.

It is needed on the earth to be preached to all nations, because that has not yet been accomplished, because the gospel has been sealed from mankind until this time -- the time of the end:

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. (Daniel 12:9)

The Great Commission is not a prophecy but a command, a mandate and a commissioning given by Christ Jesus to His disciples... and by extension to us.

Yes, the commission is a command.

Here is the prophesy:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

The Great Commission is fulfilled through Christians by the power of God before Christ's Second Coming, as Christ Himself indicates in His issuing of the Great Commission itself, promising to be with us always.

Then the angel "having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth" is unnecessary?

[PinSeeker]

It's not "an eternal gospel" as you wrote!

I quoted from the English Standard Version, which is a GREAT translation.

It's the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth."

Everlasting = Eternal.

So wherever the angel is, the destination of that everlasting gospel which he carries is the earth.

Sure. But the angel doesn't carry it (proclaim it) to all the nations, we do.

Here is the prophesy: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Okay, very good. But Jesus is repeating the prophecy given originally by Isaiah.

The Great Commission is fulfilled through Christians by the power of God before Christ's Second Coming, as Christ Himself indicates in His issuing of the Great Commission itself, promising to be with us always.

Then the angel "having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth" is unnecessary?

Nope. Preaching by the angel is, though. That's the point. It's "kept" in heaven, but proclaimed in all the earth to all the nations by Christians.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

So wherever the angel is, the destination of that everlasting gospel which he carries is the earth.

Sure. But the angel doesn't carry it (proclaim it) to all the nations, we do.

When are we going to get started?

[PinSeeker]

When are we going to get started?

Are you sitting on your hands?

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

When are we going to get started?

Are you sitting on your hands?

Grace and peace to you.

Not exactly, I've been trying to teach you the true good news of the gospel.

To no avail, sadly.

The truth would set you free.

[PinSeeker]

When are we going to get started?

Are you sitting on your hands?

Not exactly, I've been trying to teach you the true good news of the gospel. To no avail, sadly. The truth would set you free.

Well, okay, yeah, that's really kind of the problem. I would try understanding it yourself first. But then you would realize I'm not one of the ones on this board that is poorly taught, and you would, you know, move on.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

When are we going to get started?

Are you sitting on your hands?

Not exactly, I've been trying to teach you the true good news of the gospel. To no avail, sadly. The truth would set you free.

Well, okay, yeah, that's really kind of the problem. I would try understanding it yourself first. But then you would realize I'm not one of the ones on this board that is poorly taught, and you would, you know, move on.

Grace and peace to you.

Good idea. Here's an example:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

I believe that verse states that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You believe John 3:16 states that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not suffer everlasting conscious torment in hell, but have everlasting blissful life in Heaven.

Which version is the true gospel?

In your version, how can someone who would condemn people to everlasting conscious torment in hell, love those people?

[otseng]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #278]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #279]

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