#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[myth-one.com]

There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Right, but the two are not mutually exclusive.

It says they are.

[PinSeeker]

Right, but the two are not mutually exclusive.

It says they are.

Nope. You read that into it. Or misread, rather.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

In #1 Jesus on hell, #2 Jesus on hell, and #3 Jesus on hell -- you closed with the question above.

Traditional doctrine has been that nonbelievers suffer everlasting torment in the hellish lake of fire and brimstone.

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Traditional doctrine also taught that Jesus paid the wages for the sins of all the world.

But if the wages of our sins is eternal torment in the lake of fire, then Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity because this is the punishment which traditional doctrine defines for mankind!

If Jesus is not in the lake of fire, then He is not paying the wages of our sins as defined by traditional theology.

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Does "traditional theology" have an answer to this dilemma?

[PinSeeker]

Traditional doctrine has been that nonbelievers suffer everlasting torment in the hellish lake of fire and brimstone.

Yes (but of course the lake of fire and brimstone is symbolic of the reality of hell)...

Traditional doctrine also taught that Jesus paid the wages for the sins of all the world.

Yes (His work of salvation was sufficient to save everyone, for sure)...

But if the wages of our sins is eternal torment in the lake of fire, then Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity because this is the punishment which traditional doctrine defines for mankind!

No, now you're conflating two different things... which you would certainly agree with, based on things you have said on many different occasions... namely that the first and second deaths are two entirely different things, and that's a no-no. Jesus paid the wages of sin, certainly, but by experiencing the first -- not the second -- death.

If Jesus is not in the lake of fire, then He is not paying the wages of our sins as defined by traditional theology.

But this is the second death, so this is a total non sequitur. Yes, He paid the wages of sin -- the first death -- as defined by traditional (orthodox) theology. He was never and never will be subject to the second death because 1.) He was without sin, and 2.) He is God.

Does "traditional theology" have an answer to this dilemma?

Yes, actually. It's quite easily understood. See above.

[myth-one.com]

Traditional doctrine has been that nonbelievers suffer everlasting torment in the hellish lake of fire and brimstone.

Yes (but of course the lake of fire and brimstone is symbolic of the reality of hell)...

What does that mean? What is the "reality" of hell?

But if the wages of our sins is eternal torment in the lake of fire, then Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity because this is the punishment which traditional doctrine defines for mankind!

No, now you're conflating two different things... which you would certainly agree with, based on things you have said on many different occasions... namely that the first and second deaths are two entirely different things, and that's a no-no. Jesus paid the wages of sin, certainly, but by experiencing the first -- not the second -- death.

The "first" death and the second death are totally different things.

The first death is appointed to all mankind, and the second death is optional based on whether one is a believer or not.

Yes, He paid the wages of sin -- the first death -- as defined by traditional (orthodox) theology.

No, every human who ever lived will suffer their first death -- as it appointed to all mankind as a consequence of being born as a human:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

The second death is the wages for our sins.

If "Traditional orthodox" theology states otherwise, then "traditional orthodox" theology is wrong.

[PinSeeker]

Traditional doctrine has been that nonbelievers suffer everlasting torment in the hellish lake of fire and brimstone.

Yes (but of course the lake of fire and brimstone is symbolic of the reality of hell)...

What does that mean? What is the "reality" of hell?

Well, just that hell is a real place. I'm not sure what was unclear about that...

But if the wages of our sins is eternal torment in the lake of fire, then Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity because this is the punishment which traditional doctrine defines for mankind!

No, now you're conflating two different things... which you would certainly agree with, based on things you have said on many different occasions... namely that the first and second deaths are two entirely different things, and that's a no-no. Jesus paid the wages of sin, certainly, but by experiencing the first -- not the second -- death.

The "first" death and the second death are totally different things.

Yes, thanks for repeating what I just said. I'm glad you understand that. Again, though, Jesus paid the wages of sin, certainly, but by experiencing the first -- not the second -- death.

The first death is appointed to all mankind, and the second death is optional based on whether one is a believer or not.

Well, I think it would be more correct to say 'avoidable'... But sure.

Yes, He paid the wages of sin -- the first death -- as defined by traditional (orthodox) theology.

No, every human who ever lived will suffer their first death -- as it appointed to all mankind as a consequence of being born as a human...

Yes, I agree, but that's beside the point. Jesus died the first death, the one appointed to Adam and Eve all as a consequence of Adam's sin, and then because we are naturally born of Adam, appointed to us also, because Adam was the federal head of the human race.

The second death is the wages for our sins.

Nope, the first death is the wages of sin. It's the very judgment God issued to Adam and Eve upon his sin in Eden in Genesis 3:

• "...till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen. 3:19)

If what you said here were true, then there would be no one to inherit eternal life, all men experience the first death (as you pointed out), and because redemption (by Jesus's atonement, of course) would not be possible. Jesus did not die the second death. The second death is reserved for the unrepentant. As I said, Jesus could not have, cannot, and will not suffer the second death because 1.) He was without sin and therefore has nothing to be repentant of, and 2.) He is God. Jesus died the first death, thereby paying the penalty -- the wages of sin -- on man's behalf.

If "Traditional orthodox" theology states otherwise, then "traditional orthodox" theology is wrong.

Right, well, traditional, orthodox theology states otherwise, but it's not wrong; that's your issue to deal with.

Grace and peace to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #94]

Yes, it is simple. If the wages for a crime are $100 and you can pay then you are let out. If it is $1,000,000 and you can pay you are then let out, etc.

Sin is against an infinitely holy God, yikes that is a big payment. Jesus is God and so can pay that infinite price - yay.

Jesus death is not going to hell but is paying the price, blood is the price.

Leviticus 17:11 New International Version
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

Hebrews 9:22
According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Otherwise, you are right on the money in analysing why the JWs and others are wrong about Jesus.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #94]

Jesus is God and so can pay that infinite price - yay.

Jesus death is not going to hell but is paying the price, blood is the price.

If Jesus is God, then He could not die, because God is immortal.

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In fact, the Bible states that Jesus was a man.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels." However, we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for His thirty-three years on earth. The Word could not die as a spirit! Thus The Word was made lower than the angels as the man Jesus Christ so that he could suffer death!

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

Blood atonement was under the Old Testament.

And we are no longer under the law for our salvation!

[PinSeeker]

If Jesus is God, then He could not die, because God is immortal.

Regarding the second death, that's true.

In fact, the Bible states that Jesus was a man.

Right, and this was why He was subject to the first death.

Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels."

Well, Jesus Christ was not made -- created -- as man was. But He did take on the form of man, the same nature -- in being born of a woman (Mary, of course) -- but was still, as He always had been (and always will be), in the form of -- of the same nature as -- God... because He is God, of course. During His life, He was of the same nature as -- OF -- God and man at the same time, which is what qualifies Him to be mediator between the Father and man. And being of the same nature as the Father is what enabled Him to remain sinless despite the human nature He had taken on. Which leads me to say that Christ humbled Himself, as Paul says in Philippians 2, in order to do what He did for us -- becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

The Word could not die as a spirit!

Well, could not die spiritually, which is the curse of the Fall and also the permanent, second death. Yes, agreed.

Thus The Word was made lower than the angels as the man Jesus Christ so that he could suffer death.

Right, the first death. Not the second.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

Right.

Blood atonement was under the Old Testament.

Ah, just when I thought you were at least sort of catching on... No, blood -- actually life, which blood is symbolic of; this is the concept of lifeblood; the wages of sin is death -- is still required for atonement, but for those who are redeemed and in Christ, that atonement has already been made.

And we are no longer under the law for our salvation!

Actually we are, just not the law that is obsolete, but the new and better Law. Not the civil or ceremonial law anymore, but the law of love, which is in Christ.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

And we are no longer under the law for our salvation!

Actually we are, just not the law that is obsolete, but the new and better Law. Not the civil or ceremonial law anymore, but the law of love, which is in Christ.

Well according to you we are.

According to the Bible, we aren't:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

You do not understand what saves mankind under the New Testament Covenant.

It is no longer having to remain without sin by never breaking any of God's laws.

We are saved under the New Testament by believing in Jesus as our Savior.

The source of our everlasting life is the gift God allowed Jesus to offer to all who believe in Him.

He earned that inheritance of everlasting life by living a sinless human life under the Old Testament Covenant -- and now offers it to whosoever believeth in Him.

We will receive this gift when born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming.

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)