#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[1213]

...
We cannot pay, but God can. This is what He did in Jesus Christ, paying for us death's wages, which is the ransom required to redeem us.

Psalm 89:48
...No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them...

...But God will redeem me from the hand of sheol;
He will surely take me to Himself.....

...."For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”....

Bible tells, no one can give a ransom. Therefore, even Jesus didn’t do so literally, but, as said “as a ransom”. Jesus death was like a ransom, because the reason why he died was basically our sins. Yet, the forgiveness doesn’t depend on death, because for example Jesus could forgive sins before his death.

[onewithhim]

I explained this. The Devil will be prevented from moving, essentially, and this would be a "torment" similar to a jailer's "torment" of restricting a prisoner's movements. And wouldn't the Devil be restricted---unable to do anything---if he was dead? That is the sense of "torment" here.

You may have explained it, but it doesn't add up. Torment is severe physical or mental suffering. If the devil were dead, he'd not feel any kind of suffering, or anything else for that matter.


Tcg

The definition here of "torment" from the Greek word for "jailed" is simply a cessation of a person's freedom to do whatever he wants, whether alive or dead. When he is dead, he is certainly stopped from doing whatever he pleases.

The scholars who translated this passage choose the word "torment" for a reason. I trust their opinion over yours. They choose it because the English word "torment" best represents the Greek. My objection stands.

You entirely miss the point as well that the lake of fire, where the Devil is "tormented," is SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration. (If you want to take that literally, explain how "hell" or, the grave, and "death" can be thrown or be aware of being tormented. Revelation 20: particularly verses 13 and 14.)

A simple review of my post will reveal the fact that I said nothing about the lake of fire. Additionally, using all caps to spell the word "SYMBOLIC" doesn't support the assertion that it is indeed symbolic.


Tcg

OK, we'll just agree to disagree.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




.

In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

Now, we know that Jesus never went to a fiery hell of torment, as he was perfectly sinless. Yet the Scriptures say he was in "hell," or, "Hades," as my KJV says once again. It is quite logical that the "Hades" here spoken of is truly the grave.

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [Hades], neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:27,31)

Jesus time in Hades was not one of suffering. The meaning of the verses is clearly that Jesus' body was in the grave, yet did not decompose.


One further point: When a person dies, as Jesus did, they are conscious of nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) So there is no consciousness after death. How can someone suffer in literal torture if they are unconscious? "...The dead know not anything....Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, KJV)

There is much more to say if you want to debate this further.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

It could be said to be, in a very general sense, "a judgment of hell". But in its specifics, it does not "support traditional doctrine".

In what way, or ways?

When looking at a verse, it is often helpful to scrutinise one or more key words by taking into account the Greek meaning in order to apply it accordingly.

In this case, of the word translated as "torturers".

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 930 basanistḗs (from 928 /basanízō) – a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination – prison guard, torturer" (L & N, 1, 37.126).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 930: βασανιστής

βασανιστής, βασανιστου, ὁ (βασανίζω), one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack, an inquisitor, torturer, ((Antiphon, others); Demosthenes, p. 978, 11; Philo in Flacc. § 11 end; (de concupisc. § 1; quod omn. prob. book 16; Plutarch, an vitios. ad infel. suff. § 2)); used in Matthew 18:34 of a jailer (δεσμοφύλαξ basanistais, basanistaîs.)

What information are we given by these two sources about "the torturers", what their function was for, and how long it would need to last?

"The torturers" were: "a prison guard or jailer whose function was to torture prisoners by the use of the rack, as a phase of judicial examination".

Each torturer was thus "an inquisitor, one who elicits the truth".

How does this support, or not support, "traditional doctrine" of "the judgment of hell"?

[

Good points. The "torturers" simply kept their prisoners from being able to go about their business, bound to one narrow spot, if you will. That would be torture for anyone....just not being able to function. That is how the "torment" of the Devil and his minions is to be understood. They are not physically tortured in flames forever, but are made to be devoid of any action---obliterated. They will not be able to carry on their evil business because they will be annihilated forever.

Thanks.

Not according to the two sources I posted, onewithhim.

What Jesus cited was a form of physical torture as a phase in judicial examination by an inquisitor,, in which the rack was employed to elicit the truth sought.

Jesus would have known this, and chose to use it in his parabolic teaching.

What kind of non-physically induced torment do you see God employing at the coming judicial examination(The Final Judgment)?

I explained this. The Devil will be prevented from moving, essentially, and this would be a "torment" similar to a jailer's "torment" of restricting a prisoner's movements. And wouldn't the Devil be restricted---unable to do anything---if he was dead? That is the sense of "torment" here. He is said to be tormented in the lake of fire forever, right? The lake of fire is SYMBOLIC of complete destruction. So you can get the meaning quite clearly when you accept that.

Onewithhim, your posts are continuing to largely ignore the passage cited in the first post as being the primary source and basis for any answer to the question this thread asks.

This passage is not about the devil and his fate, and is not about the lake of fire or about Hades. It is not about "torture" but about "torturers".

It is a parabolic story Jesus told and then applied to a certain group of people.

Please reread the passage until you get what it says, and about whom it was intended for.

I trust that is not too much to ask of you, and I wish you well.

In addition, pay closer attention to what we are told in the two Greek sources I have posted.

I have paid very close attention to what is being said, and the "torturers" are compatible with "jailers," and jailers keep someone locked up with no recourse to go about their business. This is a good way to describe the prisoners---unable to do anything. That is the meaning of what the Jailers do.

Now we take this over into Revelation where most everything is parabolic, and we look beyond the literalness of it. The Devil isn't being physically tortured, he is being RESTRAINED from doing anything.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




.

In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

Interesting because the KJV I own says no such thing. Evidently it's not all that important.

Now, we know that Jesus never went to a fiery hell of torment, as he was perfectly sinless. Yet the Scriptures say he was in "hell," or, "Hades," as my KJV says once again. It is quite logical that the "Hades" here spoken of is truly the grave.

What verses say Jesus never went to Hell, which is the only evidence that counts. AND what verses say he was in hell?

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [Hades], neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:27,31)

Nothing at all about not going to, or being sent to hell, but far more to the point that he did, in fact, go to hell, but just wasn't left there.

One further point: When a person dies, as Jesus did, they are conscious of nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) So there is no consciousness after death. How can someone suffer in literal torture if they are unconscious? "...The dead know not anything....Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, KJV)

Yet there are verses that absolutely contradict such good fortune that can't be ignored.

Even Jesus recognizes the nature of hell

Matthew 18:8
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Plus our suffering in it

Matthew 8:12
12 And those who should have the kingdom will be thrown out. They will be thrown outside into the darkness, where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 16:22-24
22 “Later, Lazarus died. The angels took him and placed him in the arms of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 He was sent to the place of death[d] and was in great pain. He saw Abraham far away with Lazarus in his arms. 24 He called, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to me so that he can dip his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am suffering in this fire!’

.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #54]

Onewithhim, your posts are continuing to largely ignore the passage cited in the first post as being the primary source and basis for any answer to the question this thread asks.

This passage is not about the devil and his fate, and is not about the lake of fire or about Hades. It is not about "torture" but about "torturers".

It is a parabolic story Jesus told and then applied to a certain group of people.

Please reread the passage until you get what it says, and about whom it was intended for.

I trust that is not too much to ask of you, and I wish you well.

In addition, pay closer attention to what we are told in the two Greek sources I have posted.

I have paid very close attention to what is being said,

Thanks for that, and the graciousness of your reply to what I posted. Noted and appreciated.

Let's now consider how well you did.

and the "torturers" are compatible with "jailers,"

You did very well about this point. Good for you.

You then added:

and jailers keep someone locked up with no recourse to go about their business. This is a good way to describe the prisoners---unable to do anything. That is the meaning of what the Jailers do.

Oops, yes, but not so in their day!

Yes, it is what jailers do today, in our Western world.

But not so in the time of Jesus in that world. The reason jailers of that time and place were also called "torturers", was because that was what they were employed to do.

Sadly, you have missed or ignored what the term "jailers" meant in those days, as detailed by the two reliable experts quoted.

Here they are again for you:

HELPS Word-studies


Cognate: 930 basanistḗs (from 928 /basanízō) – a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination – prison guard, torturer" (L & N, 1, 37.126).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 930: βασανιστής

βασανιστής, βασανιστου, ὁ (βασανίζω), one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack; an inquisitor, torturer, ((Antiphon, others); Demosthenes, p. 978

Ok, let's continue:

Now we take this over into Revelation where most everything is parabolic, and we look beyond the literalness of it.

The Devil isn't being physically tortured, he is being RESTRAINED from doing anything.

Oh dear!

Jesus does not mention the devil anywhere in the whole passage.

As I wrote:
"This passage is not about the devil and his fate".

If at first you don't succeed, ....

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




.

In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

Interesting because the KJV I own says no such thing. Evidently it's not all that important.

It's importance is according to opinion. The fact that the presenters of the King James Version included the margin notes about Hades being "the grave" is actually quite significant, whether or not your particular version includes it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




.

In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

Interesting because the KJV I own says no such thing. Evidently it's not all that important.

Now, we know that Jesus never went to a fiery hell of torment, as he was perfectly sinless. Yet the Scriptures say he was in "hell," or, "Hades," as my KJV says once again. It is quite logical that the "Hades" here spoken of is truly the grave.

What verses say Jesus never went to Hell, which is the only evidence that counts. AND what verses say he was in hell?

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [Hades], neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:27,31)

Nothing at all about not going to, or being sent to hell, but far more to the point that he did, in fact, go to hell, but just wasn't left there.

One further point: When a person dies, as Jesus did, they are conscious of nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) So there is no consciousness after death. How can someone suffer in literal torture if they are unconscious? "...The dead know not anything....Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, KJV)

Yet there are verses that absolutely contradict such good fortune that can't be ignored.

Even Jesus recognizes the nature of hell

Matthew 18:8
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Plus our suffering in it

Matthew 8:12
12 And those who should have the kingdom will be thrown out. They will be thrown outside into the darkness, where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 16:22-24
22 “Later, Lazarus died. The angels took him and placed him in the arms of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 He was sent to the place of death[d] and was in great pain. He saw Abraham far away with Lazarus in his arms. 24 He called, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to me so that he can dip his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am suffering in this fire!’

.

"Everlasting fire" is symbolic, usually, for complete destruction, as has been explained many times here in these threads. Sometimes it is used to indicate that the message someone is hearing can cause them great distress, as if they were being tormented in fire. That is part of what Jesus was addressing in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The "rich man," or, the Pharisees, was/were in great consternation and agony because of the teachings of Jesus and his disciples. That was what was meant by the rich man being in flames. Jesus' mention of "hell" still meant the grave. The whole parable is allegorical, aimed at chastising the Pharisees who were not spiritually feeding their constituents as they should have been, but were taking advantage of the people, and ignoring the teaching of Jesus.

[PinSeeker]

"Everlasting fire" is symbolic, usually, for complete destruction, as has been explained many times here in these threads.

Well, by those posters advocating annihilationism, yes, but that's quite incorrect. The fire is symbolic; I think at last most of us agree on that. But it symbolizes the never-ending, eternal judgment God places -- will place -- on the unrepentant at the end of this age.

Sometimes it is used to indicate that the message someone is hearing can cause them great distress, as if they were being tormented in fire. That is part of what Jesus was addressing in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Well, no "message" is really in view in Luke 16, but being under God's all-consuming judgment, which the rich young ruler is as a result of his lack of mercy and compassion for Lazarus, the poor man, even though he (the rich young ruler) in his lifetime received good things. It is being under God's judgment -- the "flame" -- that is causing him anguish.

Jesus' mention of "hell" still meant the grave.

In the opinion of some, but this too is incorrect.

The whole parable is allegorical, aimed at chastising the Pharisees who were not spiritually feeding their constituents as they should have been, but were taking advantage of the people, and ignoring the teaching of Jesus.

It is allegorical, for sure, but indicative of a greater reality. And I agree that the Pharisees were "aimed at," but Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples (and us, by extension), so it is "aimed" at them (and us), too. In the words of Micah, all men (and women) are to do justice, and to love kindness/mercy, and to walk humbly with (their/our) God.

Grace and mercy and peace to you.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




.

In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

Interesting because the KJV I own says no such thing. Evidently it's not all that important.

It's importance is according to opinion.

Bingo! The editors of your version think it's important. The editors my version don't think it's important.

The fact that the presenters of the King James Version included the margin notes about Hades being "the grave" is actually quite significant, whether or not your particular version includes it.

And to paraphrase your comment; its significance is according to opinion.



.