#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


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7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




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In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

Interesting because the KJV I own says no such thing. Evidently it's not all that important.

Now, we know that Jesus never went to a fiery hell of torment, as he was perfectly sinless. Yet the Scriptures say he was in "hell," or, "Hades," as my KJV says once again. It is quite logical that the "Hades" here spoken of is truly the grave.

What verses say Jesus never went to Hell, which is the only evidence that counts. AND what verses say he was in hell?

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [Hades], neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:27,31)

Nothing at all about not going to, or being sent to hell, but far more to the point that he did, in fact, go to hell, but just wasn't left there.

One further point: When a person dies, as Jesus did, they are conscious of nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) So there is no consciousness after death. How can someone suffer in literal torture if they are unconscious? "...The dead know not anything....Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, KJV)

Yet there are verses that absolutely contradict such good fortune that can't be ignored.

Even Jesus recognizes the nature of hell

Matthew 18:8
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Plus our suffering in it

Matthew 8:12
12 And those who should have the kingdom will be thrown out. They will be thrown outside into the darkness, where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 16:22-24
22 “Later, Lazarus died. The angels took him and placed him in the arms of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 He was sent to the place of death[d] and was in great pain. He saw Abraham far away with Lazarus in his arms. 24 He called, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to me so that he can dip his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am suffering in this fire!’

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"Everlasting fire" is symbolic, usually, for complete destruction, as has been explained many times here in these threads. Sometimes it is used to indicate that the message someone is hearing can cause them great distress, as if they were being tormented in fire. That is part of what Jesus was addressing in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The "rich man," or, the Pharisees, was/were in great consternation and agony because of the teachings of Jesus and his disciples. That was what was meant by the rich man being in flames. Jesus' mention of "hell" still meant the grave. The whole parable is allegorical, aimed at chastising the Pharisees who were not spiritually feeding their constituents as they should have been, but were taking advantage of the people, and ignoring the teaching of Jesus.

Yeah, sure!

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....................................................GIVE ME A BREAK!


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[onewithhim]

"Everlasting fire" is symbolic, usually, for complete destruction, as has been explained many times here in these threads.

Well, by those posters advocating annihilationism, yes, but that's quite incorrect. The fire is symbolic; I think at last most of us agree on that. But it symbolizes the never-ending, eternal judgment God places -- will place -- on the unrepentant at the end of this age.

That is true. And the judgment is annihilation.

[PinSeeker]

"Everlasting fire" is symbolic, usually, for complete destruction, as has been explained many times here in these threads.

Well, by those posters advocating annihilationism, yes, but that's quite incorrect. The fire is symbolic; I think at last most of us agree on that. But it symbolizes the never-ending, eternal judgment God places -- will place -- on the unrepentant at the end of this age.

That is true.

Thank you.

And the judgment is annihilation.

Absolutely not. The results of the judgment and the punishment itself are everlasting, rather than in any way fleeting, or even short-lived.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #64]

Annihilation IS everlasting punishment.

[PinSeeker]

Annihilation IS everlasting punishment.

Certainly not for the one annihilated, which is what makes it not everlasting punishment, in any sense, but only fleeting.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

Annihilation IS everlasting punishment.

Certainly not for the one annihilated, which is what makes it not everlasting punishment, in any sense, but only fleeting.

Grace and peace to you.

"Fleeting"?? How is annihilation fleeting? It's quite permanent, and because of this righteous humans are protected from evil, and, the individual that is obliterated will not be tortured endlessly, which is more to God's merciful character's liking. What point would there be to torturing someone forever? No point at all, and Jehovah isn't that sadistic.

The lake of fire is the parallel to "Gehenna"---total destruction.

Many Bible translators have taken the liberty of rendering "Gehenna" as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why? Because they associate the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, however, never associated Gehenna with torment. Jesus knew that the very thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. Referring to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah, God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth, which in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (Jeremiah 7:31) Is it safe to say that burning people in a fire was repugnant to God? The idea of torment for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Again, Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction resulting from God's adverse judgment. Both Gehenna and the lake of fire symbolize eternal destruction from which no resurrection is possible. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15)

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[PinSeeker]

"Fleeting"?? How is annihilation fleeting?

Does the person endure it forever? No.

It's quite permanent...

Sure, it's permanent, but that's another thing entirely. It's not long-lasting in any way, ergo, fleeting. No matter your view on capital punishment, it's a very good temporal illustration of the much greater eternal reality here:

• If one is put to death by electric chair or lethal injection, he or she receives punishment for the crime committed, but the punishment itself only lasts until he or she is dead, a very short time.

• Conversely, he or she may be sentenced to life imprisonment without possibility of parole, and therefore endures that punishment for the rest of his or her life.

...the individual that is obliterated will not be tortured endlessly...

No one is tortured at all, much less endlessly. Everyone is given what he or she wants, actually.

...more to God's merciful character's liking.

Who are any of us to say what is more to God's liking or less?

What point would there be to torturing someone forever?

See above. Again, there is no "torture" that goes on.

...Jehovah isn't that sadistic.

Yes, Jehovah is not "sadistic" in any way.

The lake of fire is the parallel to "Gehenna"---total destruction.

The biblical concept of destruction is to be understood not in the way of annihilation or extinction but rather ruination, or the state of being ruined. The word “hell” in verse 47 translates the term "gehenna," which was another name for the “valley of the son of Hinnom,” the place near Jerusalem where many ancient Jews sacrificed children to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10). By the first century A.D., the place was seen as accursed because of that, and it was used as a figure for the eternal place of punishment after death, or hell. Jesus’ use of the unquenchable fire in reference to this place (v. 48) borrows from the fact that in His day, the physical gehenna was a garbage dump where garbage never stopped burning. Jesus uses the physical reality to point to something much worse: unending suffering -- not physical torture, but surely anguish and torment, which cannot be endured if one does not exist -- in the afterlife for those who remain unrepentant and do not trust in Him and His righteousness alone for their salvation.

Annihilation is surely not in view, but quite the opposite. It's terrifying, but, well, it is what it is.

Many Bible translators... associate the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem.

There may be some translators who understand it in this wooden way, just as there were then and are today others that believe the same thing, but that doesn't affect the translation in any way. The translation is what it is.

Jesus, however, never associated Gehenna with torment.

He certainly did, as He illustrated to His listeners (and us) in Luke 16.

Jesus knew that the very thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah.

Yes, because He is Jehovah (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit), and because no one gets burned alive. But yes, He knew very well that God does not obliterate what He made in the first place, much less what He made very good, as we see in Genesis 1.

Is it safe to say that burning people in a fire was repugnant to God?

The whole idea of anyone getting burned alive is ridiculous, because God Himself is the fire, the consuming fire.

The idea of torment for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

No, what utterly conflicts with God's Word is the idea that God would annihilate any part of His creation, the work of His own hands -- what He made for His own glory. The whole of Ecclesiastes is about "life under the sun," physical, temporal life here on earth. There were then, are now, and always will be -- until Jesus comes back, of course -- those who, though they be walking among us, are dead in their sin and therefore are conscious of and know nothing of their need for Christ and their need of salvation in Him. Indeed, they think the Gospel, which we know is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, is utter foolishness.

Again, Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction resulting from God's adverse judgment.

Agree. But destruction is not analogous and parallel in any sense to annihilation, but to ruination. See above.

Both Gehenna and the lake of fire symbolize eternal destruction from which no resurrection is possible. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15)

Well, no redemption is possible; the resurrection has already taken place -- they have been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29). They cannot cross the great chasm has been fixed between the place of their anguish/torment/ruination to the place of rest at Abraham's side (Luke 16).

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #54]

onewithhim wrote:
Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)

In several KJV Bibles that I have, at Revelation 20:14 where it says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," the margin note says of the word "hell": "Greek--Hades, or, the grave." It appears that KJ translators knew and agreed that "hell," or, "Hades," meant the grave.

I write this now to introduce a past expert on Hades. I think his contribution would be of much help to both you and Miles.

This man was well known for his Critical Lexicon and Concordance, which included all the many times the Bible said the word "Hades" and its OT equivalent, "sheol".

-u]Sheol and Hades: Their Meaning and Usage in the Word of God[/u]

by E W Bullinger

The Hebrew Sheol and its Greek equivalent Hades require careful study, as few words are more obscured in our English Versions of the Bible than these two.

This is so because of the various ways in which they are treated in translation. The two words have different etymologies, yet they are identical in their use in Holy Scripture.

Sheol belongs to the Hebrew Bible, and is coined, so to speak, by the Holy Spirit Himself. It can be understood only by observing the way in which He has used it in the Scriptures; learning from there we can discover the meaning which He has Himself given it.

However, the Greek Hades is different. It had a history and a meaning long before it was used by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. Hades comes to us with all its associations in Greek literature and, in particular, its connection with heathen Mythology. It comes pervaded and permeated with all its heathen traditions. However, when we consider it in the New Testament, all of these must be discarded, and set forever aside. In the New Testament, Hades represents the Old Testament word Sheol.

Hence in the New Testament it can mean only what its Hebrew equivalent (Sheol) means in the Old Testament.

So, if you can find it, it is more than worth a careful look. He has done his homework well.

In his usual thorough and detailed style, this author does an excellent job in explaining and clarifying these two words, touching upon every occurrence of each in the Scriptures.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #68]

The Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna, was Jesus' illustration of complete obliteration. It wasn't the fire itself that he was focusing on, it was the RESULT of the fire in the dump. The fire completely obliterated the trash that was thrown there, eventually, including bodies of criminals. They did not exist any more. You take a piece of paper and even a dead body and set fire to it. What is the outcome of that? The paper and the body are completely obliterated. That is what Jesus was teaching when he used the word Gehenna.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #69]

I agree....the Sheol of the OT is the Hades of the Greek scriptures. Both words indicate mankind's grave.