#2 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

The Parable of the Wedding Feast
22 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

If you don't attend the feast or are kicked out you are in the outer darkness and will wail and gnash your teeth. I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost. It doesn't support annihilation otherwise you can't be cast out or wail and gnash your teeth.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

#1 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38453

[PinSeeker]

So, back to Wootah's original post, yes, Wootah's point is absolutely valid.

Nope.

Yep. He's right.

There is no support for this assertion:

"I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost."

Perhaps you overlooked it.

Who said anything about jealousy?

Wootah did in the claim you are reporting is "absolutely valid." Perhaps you reached that conclusion before you read his claim.

I would take issue with the language he used, namely "jealous" and "tortured." So, granted. Congratulations on that "win." I don't think you can really claim that, because that language was not part of his original post. His claim that the parable is indicative of the judgement of hell and supportive of traditional doctrine (his insinuation regarding his question for debate in his original post, which I specified explicitly) is what I was referring to as absolutely valid. And what you're doing here is -- at least inadvertently -- putting words in my mouth. Which is... uncool.

Grace and peace to you.

[Tcg]

So, back to Wootah's original post, yes, Wootah's point is absolutely valid.

Nope.

Yep. He's right.

There is no support for this assertion:

"I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost."

Perhaps you overlooked it.

Who said anything about jealousy?

Wootah did in the claim you are reporting is "absolutely valid." Perhaps you reached that conclusion before you read his claim.

I would take issue with the language he used, namely "jealous" and "tortured." So, granted. Congratulations on that "win." I don't think you can really claim that, because that language was not part of his original post. His claim that the parable is indicative of the judgement of hell and supportive of traditional doctrine (his insinuation regarding his question for debate in his original post, which I specified explicitly) is what I was referring to as absolutely valid. And what you're doing here is -- at least inadvertently -- putting words in my mouth. Which is... uncool.

Grace and peace to you.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I pointed out what you claimed to agree with. You are now retracting that claim. Your wavering between agreement and disagreement is not my fault.


Tcg

[Wootah]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #7]

Posts like these make me miss the old MPG donation system!

[Wootah]

[Replying to Tcg in post #13]

I don't understand you Tcg. What point are you trying to make?

[PinSeeker]

I didn't put any words in your mouth.

You did.

I pointed out what you claimed to agree with.

Well, you pointed out what you thought I claimed to agree with, but were mistaken. And there's no problem with that, but then when I corrected you, you doubled down. So, yes, you (tried to) put words in my mouth.

You are now retracting that claim.

No, I'm denying that I made a claim anywhere close to what you're trying to attribute to me (even after I corrected you on it). It's quite impossible to retract a claim that you (I) never made.

Your wavering between agreement and disagreement is not my fault.

No wavering. Mere misunderstanding (the first time) -- and dishonesty (the second time) -- on your part.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you!

The parable foreshadows the wedding feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10), as said. But concerning the eschatological events in Revelation, many folks get the timeline wrong. Yes, this feast occurs at the end of this age -- after the end of the Millennium depicted in Revelation 20:1-3 and after Christ's return.

A wedding feast takes place after the wedding right? The wedding/marriage takes place AT Christ's return, does it not?

But there is no removal of Christ's Bride (his Church, all believers) for any length of time.

Yes, except to be caught up and 'changed', 'in a twinkling' (for those alive at the time Christ returns, while those who had died in Him come with Him).

Those who are still alive at the time of Christ's glorious return will go out to meet Him in His return, for sure, welcoming Him and accompanying Him in His final descent.

Yes, also being 'changed' in a twinkling, New Jerusalem (the Bride) coming down from heaven.

Revelation 20:1-10 is not literarily a part of any of the cycles; it is an interjection of sorts. Really, though, Revelation 20:1-10 is concurrent with all of the judgement cycles. It should be seen as a promise of relief for the saints (all believers). It is a picture of the present reign of Christ and of the saints in heaven (analogous to Revelation 6:9-10), who are, over the course of the completeness of the church age -- the figurative thousand years -- are at their appointed times, experiencing the first resurrection -- being saved and coming to life and reigning with Christ. And Satan has been bound -- in the pit, which is shut and sealed over him -- through the triumph of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection, no longer able to deceive the nations.

1 - The first resurrection (which is indeed for those in Christ) occurs at the same time.

This is the first resurrection:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

For since we believe that [Jesus] died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with [Jesus] those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.


For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.


**

Christ ALSO said, speaking to the church in a specific 'place':

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Will give authority over the nations. Not 'has given'. This has not yet happened.


**

And of course as has been discussed previously, Satan has not yet been bound. Satan was and is roaming about looking for someone to devour, and if we resist him he will flee from us, and he does continue to deceive the nations (which are indeed deceived - so many deceptions and lies out there about Christ, about God). I know you claim that Satan is only prevented from spreading the gospel, and that is what it means for him to be 'bound', but not only does that not make sense (how/why was he prevented from hindering the spread of the gospel before Christ came?)... that is just one more religious teaching that interprets a verse to make it mesh with some doctrine or another (even though the verse actually contradicts the doctrine). JW's say that the Bride coming down OUT OF heaven, means that the Bride remains IN heaven. Whoever taught the doctrine that you are espousing says that Satan being bound and sealed in the Abyss means that Satan is free to roam/prowl/walk about.

Satan is clearly not bound and sealed in the Abyss at this time:

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1Peter 5:8

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7

Several different kinds of evidence point to this being the proper ordering:

Revelation is not all written in order (I think you agree). Some things we can know by the way it is worded, such as 'at the end of the thousand years', we can know that what John is about to write comes at the end of the thousand years. For the rest (and even that), the best course of action so that one can know the truth, is to come to Christ (not men or religion), so that He may reveal the truth of the matter to us.

And some things are a 'birds eye view' while other parts (even later parts, such as in Genesis with the creation of man, male and female) describe a previous occurrence in more detail.

5. Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in 19:11-21. If 20:1-6 were to represent events later than 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3.

The Adversary is not destroyed here, and there are people alive on the earth during the thousand years (those invited into the Kingdom as well as those outside it, in the 'outer darkness' <- those outside the Kingdom are the ones the Adversary later deceives into riding across the breadth of the earth to attack the people God loves once he is released from his prison at the end of the thousand years. Fire comes down from heaven and devours them though.)


viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804

Grace and peace to all.

Thank you and peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

A wedding feast takes place after the wedding right?

Sure.

The wedding/marriage takes place AT Christ's return, does it not?

No, Paul says in Ephesians 5 that the model for a marriage between a man and his wife is the marriage between Christ and His church. Men, after the marriage takes place, are to love their wives as Christ does -- present tense -- His church. So the marriage between Christ and His church has already taken place. Now, having said that, there are still people coming to Christ, for sure, so in that sense, the marriage is in progress. This is the now and the not yet of the Gospel.

But in answer to your questions, the wedding feast is to celebrate the consummation of the marriage, and the consummation will take place and the return of Jesus Christ -- after the Judgment, of course.

But there is no removal of Christ's Bride (his Church, all believers) for any length of time.

Yes, except to be caught up and 'changed', 'in a twinkling' (for those alive at the time Christ returns, while those who had died in Him come with Him).

There's no removal of Christ's Church for any length of time. The only removal -- separation -- is that of the "tares," who are separated from the "wheat," which takes place immediately following the final Judgment.

Those who are still alive at the time of Christ's glorious return will go out to meet Him in His return, for sure, welcoming Him and accompanying Him in His final descent.

Yes, also being 'changed' in a twinkling, New Jerusalem (the Bride) coming down from heaven.

Well, yes, but the events described in Revelation 21:1-8 occur following the events from Revelation 20:11-15, the Judgment. But yes.

Revelation 20:1-10 is not literarily a part of any of the cycles; it is an interjection of sorts. Really, though, Revelation 20:1-10 is concurrent with all of the judgement cycles. It should be seen as a promise of relief for the saints (all believers). It is a picture of the present reign of Christ and of the saints in heaven (analogous to Revelation 6:9-10), who are, over the course of the completeness of the church age -- the figurative thousand years -- are at their appointed times, experiencing the first resurrection -- being saved and coming to life and reigning with Christ. And Satan has been bound -- in the pit, which is shut and sealed over him -- through the triumph of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection, no longer able to deceive the nations.

1 - The first resurrection (which is indeed for those in Christ) occurs at the same time.

As we both know very well, we disagree on that. I'm thankful for your parenthetical expression here, because that makes my point here. The first resurrection is spiritual in nature and occurs for each of us individually as we are placed in Christ, as each of us individually is made alive in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:

"...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace (we) have been saved -- and raised us up with (Christ) and seated us with (Christ) in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages (God) might show the immeasurable riches of (God's) grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-7).

THIS is the first resurrection.

This is the first resurrection:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

"For since we believe that [Jesus] died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with [Jesus] those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Nope, this is the second resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is talking specifically about those who have fallen asleep in Christ, those who have physically died, and the unspoken assumption is that his hearers will also physically die before Christ's return, so they are all included here. He briefly touches on the first resurrection in 1 Corinthians 1, specifically verse 9 when he affirms God calling them into the fellowship of the Lord Jesus Christ. The rest of the book through chapter 14 he spends exhorting them to live in the light of this calling/resurrection.

Similarly, Paul does not speak to the Thessalonians in his first letter to them about the first resurrection but only the results of it, and how they (we) are to live in view of the fact that we have experienced it. Paul does allude to the first resurrection in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ("God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" -- emphasis added). But specifically in 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul is reassuring them (and us) that those fellow Christians who experienced the first resurrection (described above) who have physically died -- namely their loved ones -- will be raised physically and will then be with Christ even as they/we (those still alive) will be (verse 15). But that's only what's necessary in the moment; the dead who are not in Christ will also be raised in the second resurrection. Paul doesn't explicitly say that because he's talking to Christians here, members of the church at Thessalonica (and us). He is addressing the saved, and there's no reason to talk about the unsaved here. But the point is that this second resurrection is a general resurrection that will be experienced by "all the dead" (Revelation 20:12), who will be judged, each one of them, according to what they have done.

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

Now this IS the first resurrection. You were mixing this with the two second resurrection references above.

Christ ALSO said, speaking to the church in a specific 'place':

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

Will give authority over the nations. Not 'has given'. This has not yet happened.

Right, the second resurrection has not yet happened. Christ has not returned yet.

And of course as has been discussed previously, Satan has not yet been bound... Satan is clearly not bound and sealed in the Abyss at this time:

"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1Peter 5:8

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7

And I say, as I've said before, that you persist in conflating two disparate things, which should not be done. Satan is absolutely bound and sealed in the Abyss regarding his ability to deceive the nations, which is exactly what Revelation 20 specifically says he is not able to do since Christ's coming. The New Testament affirms that Jesus's first coming has already bound Satan (Matthew 12:29 -- "...how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?") and brought God's light to the nations (Matthew 4:14-16; Luke 2:32; Acts 14:15-17; 17:30-31). This binding of Satan for "a thousand years" refers to the gospel's spread among all nations during the present age, and to the present restraint of the church's persecutors until an outbreak of rebellion before Christ's return (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8).

Now, he can still exert influence on individuals, that's for sure. But this really has nothing to do with this binding from deceiving the nations.

Revelation is not all written in order (I think you agree).

Well, it is in chronological order, but not in strict chronological order from Revelation 1 through Revelation 22. Again, as I said several posts ago, Revelation is a series of cycles of judgments encompassing the whole of the church age. Each cycle in and of itself is ordered chronologically and is concurrent to a greater or lesser degree with other cycles, and is symbolic of history leading up to Christ's return, successively focusing more and more on Christ's return. The cycles are as follows:

Cycle 1: Seven seals -- Revelation 5:1 - 8:1
Cycle 2: Seven trumpets -- Revelation 8:2 - 11:19
Cycle 3: Seven symbolic histories -- Revelation 12:1 - 14:20
Cycle 4: Seven bowls -- Revelation 15:1 - 16:21
Cycle 5: Seven messages of judgment on Babylon -- Revelation 17:1 - 19:10
Cycle 6: The white horse judgment 19:11-21
Cycle 7: The white throne judgment -- Revelation 20:11 - 21:8

Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in 19:11-21. If 20:1-6 were to represent events later than 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3.

The Adversary is not destroyed here...

Revelation 19:11-21 should be seen as parallel to Revelation 20:7-10.

...there are people alive on the earth during the thousand years...

Absolutely; I have never insinuated or said otherwise...

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

A wedding feast takes place after the wedding right?

Sure.

The wedding/marriage takes place AT Christ's return, does it not?

No, Paul says in Ephesians 5 that the model for a marriage between a man and his wife is the marriage between Christ and His church. Men, after the marriage takes place, are to love their wives as Christ does -- present tense -- His church.

Yes, but she (we who are in Christ, who are the Bride) are betrothed. In Israel, if you were betrothed, you can commit adultery, because you are promised to your husband. Just as Paul stated to some that he had 'promised them to one husband'.

So the marriage between Christ and His church has already taken place. Now, having said that, there are still people coming to Christ, for sure, so in that sense, the marriage is in progress. This is the now and the not yet of the Gospel.

A marriage tends not to be ongoing like that, but, even granting that, if the marriage is not yet complete, the wedding feast does not yet begin.

But in answer to your questions, the wedding feast is to celebrate the consummation of the marriage, and the consummation will take place and the return of Jesus Christ --

Sure, because that union is what makes the marriage complete. Before that time (before the consummation takes place) it can be annulled.

But there is no removal of Christ's Bride (his Church, all believers) for any length of time.

Yes, except to be caught up and 'changed', 'in a twinkling' (for those alive at the time Christ returns, while those who had died in Him come with Him).

There's no removal of Christ's Church for any length of time.

I said yes to there being no removal for any length of time (by which I thought you meant a long period), but there is a brief removal as people are taken up (for the consummation, that union, that change, *in a twinkling*).

Revelation 20:1-10 is not literarily a part of any of the cycles; it is an interjection of sorts. Really, though, Revelation 20:1-10 is concurrent with all of the judgement cycles. It should be seen as a promise of relief for the saints (all believers). It is a picture of the present reign of Christ and of the saints in heaven (analogous to Revelation 6:9-10), who are, over the course of the completeness of the church age -- the figurative thousand years -- are at their appointed times, experiencing the first resurrection -- being saved and coming to life and reigning with Christ. And Satan has been bound -- in the pit, which is shut and sealed over him -- through the triumph of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection, no longer able to deceive the nations.

1 - The first resurrection (which is indeed for those in Christ) occurs at the same time.

As we both know very well, we disagree on that.

Yes, for now, and for reasons stated (including that all who reign with Christ for the thousand years, do so for the entire thousand years). Please note though that at Rev 20:4, John sees the souls of those who were beheaded because of their testimony for Christ:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

He then writes that they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years (and this is AFTER they had been beheaded for their testimony for Christ).

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Now, if they had already been beheaded for their testimony for Christ, would they not already have been IN Christ - in order to give their testimony for Him?

How then could the first resurrection be what you claim, if the first resurrection occurs AFTER they were beheaded for their testimony to Christ?

This is the first resurrection:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

"For since we believe that [Jesus] died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with [Jesus] those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Nope, this is the second resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is talking specifically about those who have fallen asleep in Christ, those who have physically died, and the unspoken assumption is that his hearers will also physically die before Christ's return, so they are all included here. He briefly touches on the first resurrection in 1 Corinthians 1, specifically verse 9 when he affirms God calling them into the fellowship of the Lord Jesus Christ. The rest of the book through chapter 14 he spends exhorting them to live in the light of this calling/resurrection.

Similarly, Paul does not speak to the Thessalonians in his first letter to them about the first resurrection but only the results of it, and how they (we) are to live in view of the fact that we have experienced it. Paul does allude to the first resurrection in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ("God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" -- emphasis added). But specifically in 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul is reassuring them (and us) that those fellow Christians who experienced the first resurrection (described above) who have physically died -- namely their loved ones -- will be raised physically and will then be with Christ even as they/we (those still alive) will be (verse 15). But that's only what's necessary in the moment; the dead who are not in Christ will also be raised in the second resurrection.

But that is not what Rev 20:4-6 states.

All who died in Christ are resurrected in the first resurrection - at the start of the thousand years (how else could they reign with Christ for the thousand years if they are not resurrected at the start of the thousand years).

But the REST OF the dead do not come to life until the thousand years are ended.

The dead in Christ are resurrected at the first resurrection... and the REST OF the dead are resurrected a thousand years later. The REST OF the dead holds the meaning of everyone else, everyone EXCEPT those who were resurrected in the first resurrection. Therefore, no one who took part in the first resurrection (mentioned as occurring at the start of the thousand years) takes part in the resurrection that occurs at the end of the thousand years.

No need.

It is not a difference between "spiritual" or "literal" resurrection; it is a difference between WHO is resurrected (at which time).

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

Now this IS the first resurrection. You were mixing this with the two second resurrection references above.

This is the first resurrection. Yes!!! Now note the timing of when it occurs: at the coming of Christ. That is exactly what Paul describes to the Corinthians in the quote above. At the coming of Christ.

Christ ALSO said, speaking to the church in a specific 'place':

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

Will give authority over the nations. Not 'has given'. This has not yet happened.

Right, the second resurrection has not yet happened. Christ has not returned yet.

Yes, but you claimed that those in Christ are already reigning as king-priests. But if that authority has not yet been given (as you agree it has not), then the reigning as kings and priests with Christ in the Kingdom for the thousand years has also not yet happened.

And of course as has been discussed previously, Satan has not yet been bound... Satan is clearly not bound and sealed in the Abyss at this time:

"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1Peter 5:8

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7

And I say, as I've said before, that you persist in conflating two disparate things, which should not be done. Satan is absolutely bound and sealed in the Abyss regarding his ability to deceive the nations,

You're limiting the verse by saying that Satan is only bound from 'deceiving the nations' (that is not true, the nations are indeed deceived), but the Abyss is a real place. Satan will be bound and sealed in that place at the start of the thousand years. He cannot then also be prowling or walking about during the thousand years. Indeed, the warning given in Revelation is a woe to the earth because the devil has gone down to you. Rev 12:10-12, 17. Satan has been barred from heaven, yes, but has gone down to the earth and pursues "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus]." Satan is not yet sealed in the Abyss. Not until Christ returns (which return is what starts the thousand years).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

The wedding/marriage takes place AT Christ's return, does it not?

No, Paul says in Ephesians 5 that the model for a marriage between a man and his wife is the marriage between Christ and His church. Men, after the marriage takes place, are to love their wives as Christ does -- present tense -- His church.

Yes, but she (we who are in Christ, who are the Bride) are betrothed. In Israel, if you were betrothed, you can commit adultery, because you are promised to your husband. Just as Paul stated to some that he had 'promised them to one husband'.

Again, the marriage between Christ and His church has already taken place. Now, having said that, there are still people coming to Christ, for sure, so in that sense, the marriage is in progress. This is the now and the not yet of the Gospel. When I said this before, you may have understood what I am adding here to that, which is that at the end of the age, this will be complete. Jesus will then return to consummate the marriage, which is the purpose of the wedding feast.

...if the marriage is not yet complete, the wedding feast does not yet begin.

Yes, we have agreed on this. Let's look for a moment at Revelation 21. This is just after Christ's return (which is not explicitly pictured but understood to have just happened; Matthew 25:31-33 is helpful here) and the final Judgment (depicted in Matthew 25:34-46) explicitly described in Revelation 20:11-15. John says:
.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:1-8)

.
Adorned for her husband. Not adorned for her fiance (or the One she is betrothed to, for that matter), but for her husband. The marriage has already taken place and is complete. The consummation -- the feast -- is all that remains undone at that point, and we have to backtrack in Revelation just a bit -- to Revelation 19:6-10... and also, implicitly, just after Revelation 19:17-21 -- to see the full order of events at the close of this age.

It might be helpful to again present, as I did before, the seven cycles of judgment presented in Revelation, each cycle in and of itself is ordered chronologically and concurrent to a greater or lesser degree with other cycles, and is symbolic of all of history leading up to Christ's return, successively focusing more and more on Christ's return:

Cycle 1: Seven seals -- Revelation 5:1 - 8:1
Cycle 2: Seven trumpets -- Revelation 8:2 - 11:19
Cycle 3: Seven symbolic histories -- Revelation 12:1 - 14:20
Cycle 4: Seven bowls -- Revelation 15:1 - 16:21
Cycle 5: Seven messages of judgment on Babylon -- Revelation 17:1 - 19:10
Cycle 6: The white horse judgment 19:11-21
Cycle 7: The white throne judgment -- Revelation 20:11 - 21:8

How then could the first resurrection be what you claim, if the first resurrection occurs AFTER they were beheaded for their testimony to Christ?

The word 'after' is never used in Revelation 20. There is "until the thousand years were ended" in verse 5, and just previous to that "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years," but it is quite valid to see both of these things in two very different ways:
.

1. the way you see it, which is that none of these things happen at all until the thousand years are complete, and that all who come to life reign with Christ for the complete thousand years

2. the way I see it, which is that these things are happening over the course of the thousand years and are just not entirely complete until the thousand years are complete, and that all who come to life progressively/successively come to life over the course of the thousand years, which itself is symbolic (of the church age).

.
As I said, both ways, on the face of each, are very valid ways to see that. But only one is correct, because the first and second explanations are opposed. The second is correct; it is consistent with the rest of Scripture and John's revelation as a whole.

It is not a difference between "spiritual" or "literal" resurrection; it is a difference between WHO is resurrected (at which time).

Disagree. I'll leave it at that, as I feel I've explained thoroughly.

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

Now this IS the first resurrection. You were mixing this with the two second resurrection references above.

Yes!!! Now note the timing of when it occurs: at the coming of Christ. That is exactly what Paul describes to the Corinthians in the quote above. At the coming of Christ.

Sorry, but I wrote this in error. Paul is speaking of the second resurrection here also. The second resurrection is physical, just as Jesus's was, which is exactly what Paul says there.

Christ ALSO said, speaking to the church in a specific 'place':

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

Will give authority over the nations. Not 'has given'. This has not yet happened.

Right, the second resurrection has not yet happened. Christ has not returned yet.

Yes, but you claimed that those in Christ are already reigning as king-priests.

Yes, I did claim that, because that's exactly what Peter tells us, referencing Exodus 19 and Deuteronomy 26:
.

"...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)

.
And I'll add that this is also part of the now and not yet of the Gospel. We have received the authority, along with Peter and the rest of the disciples, by Christ Himself in Matthew 16:18-19. When Jesus returns, and after the judgment, it will be in full. We are co-heirs, now in part (but we can live as if in full), but then in full.

But if that authority has not yet been given (as you agree it has not), then the reigning as kings and priests with Christ in the Kingdom for the thousand years has also not yet happened.

But the authority has been given, and the "thousand years" is now in progress, and has been since Peter's writing of the above... actually since Pentecost.

You're limiting the verse by saying that Satan is only bound from 'deceiving the nations'...

I am absolutely not "limiting" it in any way, except in the way that John Himself (really the Holy Spirit, Who is the real Author of Scripture) does. I'm stating exactly what Revelation 20:3 says. Satan is bound and in the pit, which is shut and sealed over him so that he might not -- cannot -- deceive the nations any longer (until the thousand years are ended, at which time he is, or will be, released for a short time. That's exactly what is said; nothing more, and nothing less.

...that is not true, the nations are indeed deceived...

It is true, and the nations are not deceived at present. Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed. Premillennialists and some postmillennialists associate this event with the advent of an extraordinary future era of peace and prosperity, contrasting with the present, but in the amillennial (correct) interpretation, the binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection (John 12:31; cf. Col. 2:15; Rev. 12:9; Matt. 12:29). The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive the nations.

Now. Satan's ability to influence and deceive individuals is a different story. You will say, I'm sure -- because you have said, previously -- that he cannot be bound and unbound at the same time, I'm sure. Well, he can be bound from one thing but not bound from a very different thing. He is not entirely unable to influence and deceive individuals. He is presently able to "hinder" (1 Thessalonians 2:18) and "prowl around" (1 Peter 5:8). We, by contrast, are (on an individual basis and corporately by building each other up in the Lord) to resist him, firm in our faith (1 Peter 5:9), and to put on the whole armor of God, to be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might so that we may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil, because we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:10-12).

Blessed be the Name of the Lord, now and forevermore! Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

[Ataraxia]

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

It's a non-literal parable.

For this to support the idea of eternal conscious torment, the weeping and gnashing of teeth must be assumed to be eternal and not possibly the of the sound of billions of people being consumed in a fire, which would also involve [temporary] suffering.