The Parable of the Wedding Feast
22 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
If you don't attend the feast or are kicked out you are in the outer darkness and will wail and gnash your teeth. I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost. It doesn't support annihilation otherwise you can't be cast out or wail and gnash your teeth.
How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
If you don't attend the feast or are kicked out you are in the outer darkness and will wail and gnash your teeth. I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost.
Yes.
It doesn't support annihilation otherwise you can't be cast out or wail and gnash your teeth.
It is not meant to support annihilation. It is also not meant to support 'hell'.
1 - This (the wedding feast/reception) occurs when Christ returns, just after having taken up His own to meet Him in the sky for the marriage of the Lamb and the Bride (so that this occurs at the first resurrection, at the start of the thousand years. Rev 20:4-6). During this time:
a - the Bride of Christ reign with Him in the Kingdom as kings and priests for at least a thousand years
b - some others are invited into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom (such as the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable).
c - some others are not invited in, but are cast outside of the Kingdom (such as the goats from the sheep and the goats parable).
Those OUTSIDE the Kingdom (aka... in the outer darkness... keep in mind that Christ is the Light, in the Kingdom is the Light, therefore, outside the Kingdom is darkness, the outer darkness), are the ones wailing and gnashing their teeth.
2 - The resurrection of the dead (some being resurrected to life and some being resurrected to judgment and the second death), which is the second resurrection, does not occur until the end of the thousand years (Rev 20:5, 7, 11-15). At THAT time (at the end of the thousand years), those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death are cast into the lake of fire (the second death) <- that is the annihilation.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Wootah wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:16 pm
...
If you don't attend the feast or are kicked out you are in the outer darkness and will wail and gnash your teeth. I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost. It doesn't support annihilation otherwise you can't be cast out or wail and gnash your teeth.
It also doesn’t support the idea of eternal conscious torturing in hell.
Wootah wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:16 pm
If you don't attend the feast or are kicked out you are in the outer darkness and will wail and gnash your teeth. I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost.
In Matthew 13 the author also mentions weeping and gnashing of teeth:
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
There is no mention of jealousy or awareness of loss. There is mention of being thrown into the fiery furnace. The connection is obvious, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because God will have his angels throw people into the fiery furnace. It is the fire that will cause severe pain and anguish. Abject torture has a tendency to do that.
It doesn't support annihilation otherwise you can't be cast out or wail and gnash your teeth.
This doesn't follow. It's possible that the casting out and anguish could occur before annihilation. The casting out is clearly a one time event and there is no claim in this passage that the anguish is eternal.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
I'll also move this to #3 on hell.
How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
I'll also move this to #3 on hell.
How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?
I've already addressed this in post #4. The weeping and gnashing of teeth could have happened before their annihilation. Nothing in this passage suggests that the anguish must be eternal.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
The parable foreshadows the wedding feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10), as said. But concerning the eschatological events in Revelation, many folks get the timeline wrong. Yes, this feast occurs at the end of this age -- after the end of the Millennium depicted in Revelation 20:1-3 and after Christ's return. But there is no removal of Christ's Bride (his Church, all believers) for any length of time. Those who are still alive at the time of Christ's glorious return will go out to meet Him in His return, for sure, welcoming Him and accompanying Him in His final descent. This is the meeting in the air, as depicted by Paul in his first letter to the Thessalonians (4:17). As for the welcoming and accompanying of royalty and their return, we see this over and over again in the Bible, most notably on Palm Sunday, where King Jesus enters Jerusalem in His triumphant return before His crucifixion and resurrection. The actual wedding feast of the Lamb takes place after the judgment, which is depicted in Revelation 20:11-15.
With the above in mind and back to the point at hand, though, many believe that 20:1-10 simply follows the Second Coming, which is depicted in 19:11-21. This is pre-millennialism. But Revelation 20:1-15 should be understood to be the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming. Each cycle is symbolic of history leading up to Christ's return, successively focusing more and more on Christ's return. The previous six cycles are as follows:
Revelation 20:1-10 is not literarily a part of any of the cycles; it is an interjection of sorts. Really, though, Revelation 20:1-10 is concurrent with all of the judgement cycles. It should be seen as a promise of relief for the saints (all believers). It is a picture of the present reign of Christ and of the saints in heaven (analogous to Revelation 6:9-10), who are, over the course of the completeness of the church age -- the figurative thousand years -- are at their appointed times, experiencing the first resurrection -- being saved and coming to life and reigning with Christ. And Satan has been bound -- in the pit, which is shut and sealed over him -- through the triumph of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection, no longer able to deceive the nations.
Several different kinds of evidence point to this being the proper ordering:
1. The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is parallel to the final battle in Revelation 16:14, 16; 17:14; 19:11-21.
2. Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
3. The judgment of Satan in Revelation 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically arranged (rather than chronologically).
4. Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; 11:18). 5. Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in 19:11-21. If 20:1-6 were to represent events later than 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3.
Thus, again, Revelation 20:11 - 21:8 is to be seen as a 7th cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles (but focuses most of all on the return of Christ, which makes sense because it is the last of the seven cycles), rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.
So, again, the wedding feast of the Lamb takes place after the judgment, which is depicted in Revelation 20:11-15, where the unrepentant (wicked) have been sent away -- banished from the renewed Garden, as it were. They follow the devil and the beast and the false prophet, the unholy trinity, into the "lake of fire and sulfur," which is symbolic, not literal, but a terrible dwelling place to be sure, and are tormented, not by any one (much less God), but rather with their worm that will not die and the fire is not quenched (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:48) -- a terrifying picture of unending judgment, where they are an abhorrence to all flesh -- day and night forever and ever. This parallels Revelation 14:11 (in judgment cycle 3; see above).
So, back to Wootah's original post, yes, Wootah's point is absolutely valid.
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:05 pm
So, back to Wootah's original post, yes, Wootah's point is absolutely valid.
Nope. There is no support for this assertion:
"I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost."
Perhaps you overlooked it.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:05 pm
So, back to Wootah's original post, yes, Wootah's point is absolutely valid.
Nope.
Yep. He's right.
Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:23 pm
There is no support for this assertion:
"I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost."
Perhaps you overlooked it.
Who said anything about jealousy? Or torture, for that matter? Certainly not I. I think you should check out another of Jesus's parables, that of the rich young ruler in Luke 16. It's closely related, and might be enlightening.
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:05 pm
So, back to Wootah's original post, yes, Wootah's point is absolutely valid.
Nope.
Yep. He's right.
Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:23 pm
There is no support for this assertion:
"I think this means you will be jealous and tortured by knowing what you have lost."
Perhaps you overlooked it.
Who said anything about jealousy?
Wootah did in the claim you are reporting is "absolutely valid." Perhaps you reached that conclusion before you read his claim.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
."
