Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

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Miles
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Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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In Matthew 5:1-2 we read: "When Jesus saw the crowds of people there, he went up on a hill and sat down. His followers came and sat next to him. 2 Then Jesus began teaching the people. He said":

Matthew 5:22
22 But I tell you, don’t be angry with anyone. If you are angry with others, you will be judged. And if you insult someone, you will be judged by the high court. And if you call someone a fool, you will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Yet in Mark Jesus does just that; he gets angry with people.

Mark 3:1-5
1 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”
4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.
5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.

And in Matthew insults others

Matthew 23:17
17 You are blind fools! Can’t you see that the Temple is greater than the gold on it? It’s the Temple that makes the gold holy!

And calls them fools.

Matthew 23:17
17 You are blind fools! Can’t you see that the Temple is greater than the gold on it? It’s the Temple that makes the gold holy!


So what's the deal here?

Jesus gets a bye on being angry with others, insulting them, and calling them fools? He can be angry, insulting, and call people fools all he wants, but if we dare to we'll be punished, and possibly end up in hell.



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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #21

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:22 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:05 am Wow! I just said stop speaking for me and you turn around and do it again. Do not tell me what I am or am not doing. Please stop implying that I'm a liar.
Might want to look up what the phrase "speaking for me" means. However, in as much as I doubt you will, here's the definition from The Free Dictionary:

speak for (one) (redirected from speaking for me)
speak for (one)
1. To say something on behalf of one; to express one's opinions for them.



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Yes this is exactly what you keep doing.

When I say I'm not trying to justify anything and you say yes I am. You're speaking for me on where I stand and what I am trying to do. Stop it.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:15 pm

"Thing is, of the 62 versions of Matthew 5:22 I checked every one of them, 100%, uses the word "anger"/"angry" in the verse. Not one of them uses the word "wrathful" or suggests hate."


Of course all 62 could be mistaken in using "anger"/"angry" instead of the NWT's "wrathful," but considering their unanimity such a mistake is highly doubtful.
Really? Was the world flat when the majority believed it so?

Image

Would you actually like to present some factual evidence to support your criticism of the NWTs choice?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #23

Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:40 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:22 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:05 am Wow! I just said stop speaking for me and you turn around and do it again. Do not tell me what I am or am not doing. Please stop implying that I'm a liar.
Might want to look up what the phrase "speaking for me" means. However, in as much as I doubt you will, here's the definition from The Free Dictionary:

speak for (one) (redirected from speaking for me)
speak for (one)
1. To say something on behalf of one; to express one's opinions for them.



.
Yes this is exactly what you keep doing.

When I say I'm not trying to justify anything and you say yes I am. You're speaking for me on where I stand. Stop it.
Okay, perhaps this where things are going awry. I am not addressing the specific words you wrote; "I'm - not - trying - to - justify - anything," That you didn't write them, but rather that I'm addressing their truth value. I'm saying that it is not true that "you're not trying to justify anything." And this is not speaking for you, but criticizing of what you said.

You claim that you're not trying to justify anything. (that you are not trying to win a Nobel prize).

And I'm saying this claim of yours has no merit. That, in fact, you are trying to justify something. (that you are trying to win a Nobel prize). However, I'm not saying this is what you said or are saying---speaking for you.


In short, this is not speaking for you, but criticizing what you said. ......HUGE difference.



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Last edited by Miles on Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #24

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to Miles in post #24]

So what was I justifying? You say I was justifying something, then it should be easy to tell me what that was. Because I no idea what you think I was justifying.

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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #25

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:47 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:15 pm

"Thing is, of the 62 versions of Matthew 5:22 I checked every one of them, 100%, uses the word "anger"/"angry" in the verse. Not one of them uses the word "wrathful" or suggests hate."


Of course all 62 could be mistaken in using "anger"/"angry" instead of the NWT's "wrathful," but considering their unanimity such a mistake is highly doubtful.
Really? Was the world flat when the majority believed it so?

Image

Would you actually like to present some factual evidence to support your criticism of the NWTs choice?
Certainly.

.............. THE FACTS

And please note that "not one of them uses the word "wrathful" or suggests hate." And while appealing to argumentum ad populum as the basis for a sound argument is indeed fallacious, it can still stand as the basis for a qualified opinion, which is why I did so:

"Of course all 62 could be mistaken in using "anger"/"angry" instead of the NWT's "wrathful," but considering their unanimity such a mistake is highly doubtful."

Please note the qualifiers "could be" and "highly doubtful."

As for my speculation as to the "why" of the JW choice:

"Obviously the NWT has chosen to step outside long-established translations of Bible verses so as to make them conform to its theology rather than deal with them head on."

If this is incorrect---they chose not to use "anger" or "angry," but rather used "wrathful" for some other reason---please advise . . . . with supporting evidence of course.



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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:07 pm If this is incorrect---they chose not to use "anger" or "angry," but rather used "wrathful" for some other reason---please advise . . . . with supporting evidence of course.
otseng wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:20 am
No single translation trumps another, and when differences of opinion arise regarding various translations, Hebrew and Greek sources will have a greater authority. Sticking to a single translation to prove your point, when the majority of translations disagree, is not allowed, and your point must then be proven by deferring to the original language in which it was written.
Emphasis MINE



Image
In Greek there are two words for anger. There is thumos , which ... is an anger which rises speedily and which just as speedily passes. There is orge, which was described as anger become inveterate. It is the long-lived anger; it is the anger of the man who nurses his wrath to keep it warm; it is the anger over which a person broods, and which he will not allow to die. - William Barclay
Orge does not refer to an explosive outburst of temper but to an inner, deep resentment that seethes and smolders, often unnoticed by others. - MacArthur
The original Greek in the form used in Matthew 5:22a indicates a sustained anger which implies vengence /action for which the English more generic word does not do full justice.
WRATH

1: strong vengeful anger or indignation
2: retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wrath
The above is well illustrated in Revelation 11:18 where the translators are faced with the same word side by side and are forced to distinguish between the anger of nations and divine fury.
REVELATION 11:18 - New King James Version

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged ...


See various translations https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-18.htm
The vast majority of translations take the same word they earlier translated as "anger" in Matthew 5:22 and retranslate it as wrath when applied to divine retribution. This not only a illustrates that wrath/wrathful is indeed suitable translation of orge, but since the verb in Matthew 5:22 is also used in the perfect tense (denoting a continuing situation or state) arguably the NWT "wrath/wrathful" is a better linguistic choice.


CONCLUSION : While modern English translations might shy away from the archaic nature of the word "wrath" they do not do so consistently. The Greek word "orge" (STRONGS #3710) has a nuance that the simple word "anger" cannot alone transmit and arguably, the NWT alone attempts to address this issue by using this perfectly legitimate alternative



Further Reading WHICH TRANSLATION SHOULD I READ?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102007409#h=19

Literal bible translations
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... bible.html






RELATED POSTS

Which Bible translation is the best?
viewtopic.php?p=960898#p960898

Did Jesus condemn all anger [Mat 5:22a]?
viewtopic.php?p=1044172#p1044172
To learn more please go to other posts related to

WAR , VIOLENCE and ... BIBLE TRANSLATIONS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Don't Do As I Do. Do As I Say.

Post #27

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:16 am
Miles wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:07 pm If this is incorrect---they chose not to use "anger" or "angry," but rather used "wrathful" for some other reason---please advise . . . . with supporting evidence of course.
otseng wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:20 am
No single translation trumps another, and when differences of opinion arise regarding various translations, Hebrew and Greek sources will have a greater authority. Sticking to a single translation [the NWT in this case] to prove your point, when the majority of translations disagree [all others in this case], is not allowed,

Emphasis MINE


JehovahsWitness wrote:
Quoting osteng:
otseng wrote:and your point must then be proven by deferring to the original language in which it was written.[/color]
Unless one has a degree in Biblical textual scholarship or some such equivalent, deferring to the original language would be a catch as catch can operation for any layman. Moreover, it presumes one has a better understanding of ancient Biblical writings than the experts who put the Bibles together. So, no thanks to any lay person's judgment as to the true or actual meaning of any Biblical text in the original language. I'll defer to the experts, as much as they may disagree from time to time.

All of which renders the rest of your post irrelevant.


Sorry.


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