#3 Jesus on Hell

[Wootah]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

#1 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38453
#2 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38457

[myth-one.com]

By classifying the everlasting weeping and gnashing of teeth in the lake of fire as "symbolic" -- does that make the eternal torment any less painful? Thanks in advance.

Well that depends on what you mean by "painful."

You seem to excuse the lake of fire, gnashing of teeth, and weeping as "symbolic."

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

Do you believe that nonbelievers will literally be cast into the lake of fire?

What do you believe the lake of fire "symbolizes"?

Painful: experiencing pain.

Are you suggesting that the nonbelievers in the lake of fire are weeping and gnashing their teeth out of something other than pain?

[PinSeeker]

You seem to excuse the lake of fire, gnashing of teeth, and weeping as "symbolic."

Well, the lake of fire, for sure, along with most every other Christian in the universe except you.

The gnashing of teeth... what is "gnashing of teeth," myth-one? I mean, I know, or at least have my opinion, but what do you think "gnashing of teeth" to be?

Weeping? Yes, there probably will be weeping, both literal and figurative.

Do you believe that nonbelievers will literally be cast into the lake of fire?

Certainly. But literally thrown into it physically? No. And into a literal lake of fire? No.

What do you believe the lake of fire "symbolizes"?

I've been painstakingly clear on this... the physical place where the unrepentant reside having been on the wrong side of God's final judgment. Now, what that place actually looks like we cannot know.

Painful: experiencing pain.

Yes, but pain can be figurative as well as literal, sometimes at the same time. But pain can be figurative, in the sense that one can experience pain in having to repeat the same things over and over and over again (as is the case with me now... ), or taking great care and/or trouble to do something, or any other kind of mental or cognitive pain -- anguish and/or torment, as described in the Bible.

Are you suggesting that the nonbelievers in the lake of fire are weeping and gnashing their teeth out of something other than pain?

Nope. This pain is their worm that will not die. But again, it's in how you understand that pain, what that pain really is.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

You seem to excuse the lake of fire, gnashing of teeth, and weeping as "symbolic."

The gnashing of teeth... what is "gnashing of teeth," myth-one? I mean, I know, or at least have my opinion, but what do you think "gnashing of teeth" to be?

The gnashing of teeth is teeth gnashing. Duh.

Do you believe that nonbelievers will literally be cast into the lake of fire?

Certainly. But literally thrown into it physically? No. And into a literal lake of fire? No.

You say that nonbelievers will certainly be literally cast into the lake of fire, but not literally thrown into it physically.

And then you say that the lake of fire that they will be litterally cast into is not literally a lake of fire.

How can that be? I find your claims literally confusing.

What do you believe the lake of fire "symbolizes"?

I've been painstakingly clear on this... the physical place where the unrepentant reside having been on the wrong side of God's final judgment. Now, what that place actually looks like we cannot know.

Sure we can. It looks like a lake of fire.

Are you suggesting that the nonbelievers in the lake of fire are weeping and gnashing their teeth out of something other than pain?

Nope. This pain is their worm that will not die.

Their worm refers to maggots which eat dead carcasses.

Their worm will not die because they will never live in their carcasses, because they were cremated!!

"Lake of fire" and "cremated" = no worm(s).

How can their pain be caused by their worm under any circumstances? The "worms" devour dead bodies. And dead bodies feel no pain.

But there is nothing to devour anyway after cremations.

[PinSeeker]

The gnashing of teeth is teeth gnashing. Duh.

LOL! I'll ask in a slightly different way, since it seems to be difficult for you to answer a simple question (if you understand it at all... but it's really a very simple task). What do you, myth-one, understand "gnashing of teeth" to be?

...what (the symbolic "lake of fire") actually looks like we cannot know.

Sure we can. It looks like a lake of fire.

LOL! You know, often, we refer to someone who has no training at, well, something, and has to just go do it without any practice, as "winging it," or being "thrown to the wolves," or even undergoing a "trial by fire." Do you suppose those things to be absolutely literal? Like, do they actually sprout feathers and flap their arms really hard and take flight? Or, are they actually taken into the mountains and literally thrown on the ground in front of a pack of salivating wolves? Or are they actually set on fire? The answer to all three questions is, "Of course not; that's silly." LOL! However, there is something going on in all three cases; all three are METAPHORS for... and therefore SYMBOLIC of... something happening that is very real.

Their worm refers to maggots which eat dead carcasses. Their worm will not die because they will never live in their carcasses, because they were cremated!! "Lake of fire" and "cremated" = no worm(s).

LOL! No... Wow. Myth-one, in the sentence "their worm will not die," the members of a group of people are personally referred to ('their') as being in possession of something ("their worm"). Aside from your insistence that their worm is a maggot -- which is laughable in itself -- one cannot possess anything, much less something, if one does not exist. LOL!

I find your claims literally confusing.

I find your inability or unwillingness to read apocalyptic literature as it should be read (rather the way one would read a Dick and Jane first grade primer) absolutely astonishing.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[Wootah]

Their worm refers to maggots which eat dead carcasses. Their worm will not die because they will never live in their carcasses, because they were cremated!! "Lake of fire" and "cremated" = no worm(s).

The worm will not die because it was cremated. Did I just read that?

[PinSeeker]

The worm will not die because it was cremated. Did I just read that?

Indeed you did. Incredible. Just... incredible.

Grace and peace, Wootah!

[tam]

This pain is their worm that will not die.

Because that makes so much more sense.


Peace again to you (all).

[myth-one.com]

Their worm refers to maggots which eat dead carcasses. Their worm will not die because they will never live in their carcasses, because they were cremated!! "Lake of fire" and "cremated" = no worm(s).

The worm will not die because it was cremated. Did I just read that?

No you did not!

The bodies of nonbelievers cast into the lake of fire are cremated in the fire!

"Worms" never have time to develop in bodies which are quickly cremated.

Flies and other bugs lay eggs in corpses, and their larvae eat from the dead bodies. This is what the "worms" are.

This does not have time to occur in bodies which are destroyed so quickly by the lake of fire.

The worm is NOT what is cremated.

The human body is cremated.

Thus that bodies "worms" were never created because the body was quickly destroyed.

Thus, that body's worms will never die -- as that body's worms never existed.

[PinSeeker]

Their worm refers to maggots which eat dead carcasses. Their worm will not die because they will never live in their carcasses, because they were cremated!! "Lake of fire" and "cremated" = no worm(s).

The worm will not die because it was cremated. Did I just read that?

No you did not! The bodies of nonbelievers cast into the lake of fire are cremated in the fire!

Wait, you mean the fire that's really a lake? LOL!!!

"Worms" never have time to develop in bodies which are quickly cremated.

Ah. I seeeeeeee... So the lake of fire is not really a lake or a fire, but a crematorium? LOL!!!

Flies and other bugs lay eggs in corpses, and their larvae eat from the dead bodies. This is what the "worms" are.

Hold on justaminnit!!! You mean... the worm is not really a worm? I was thinking, like, an inchworm, or a nightcrawler, or something... LOL!!!

The worm is NOT what is cremated. The human body is cremated.

So, does God have a countless number of little brass urns stacked up on the mantle over His fireplace? You know, to hold the ashes? LOL!!!

Thus that bodies "worms" were never created because the body was quickly destroyed. Thus, that body's worms will never die -- as that body's worms never existed.

Well, then, again, same question as above: How do they still possess "their worm" (Mark 9)? The group of people that don't exist anymore but still actually possess something... and their worm that doesn't exist anymore (or never existed) but is supposed to never die? LOL!!!

Okay, I think... it's enough. Incredible.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[PinSeeker]

This pain is their worm that will not die.

Because that makes so much more sense.

When one realizes that the pain is figurative and is to be understood as emotional anguish and torment, and that the worm itself is not literal but figurative and symbolic of the unending pain/anguish/torment, then it makes perfect sense. To think otherwise, intentionally or otherwise, is either linguistic malpractice or shows lack of linguistic intelligence.

As I said, the inability or unwillingness to read apocalyptic literature as it should be read (rather the way one would read a Dick and Jane first grade primer) is absolutely astonishing.

And to even have to say this is a bit painful -- and a bit of a worm -- to me, but of course that will not last forever: I'm already over it.

Grace and peace to you.