tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:14 pm
Come on Pinseeker.
I say very much the same to you, Tammy.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:14 pm
To BE clear though, their worm does not die is never stated to be pain and anguish.
It is what it is. See my response to Checkpoint above.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:14 pm
Since it goes against what my Lord teaches me on the matter of 'the second death'...
That's only your opinion, Tammy. Mine is...
... that it most certainly does not.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:14 pm
You have never been able to demonstrate that (punishment for the sake of punishment/eternal conscious torment that can never ceases) is required to meet God's perfect justice.
That is absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably not what I've tried to demonstrate. You're putting words into my mouth, whether intentionally or not, whether you realize it or not. I'm not "mad" because of that, but that's what you're doing. I have never intended to demonstrate that or in any way set out to do so. What is troubling to me, Tammy, is that I've said that more than once before (to you and to others), and you continue to level that at me. To be quite honest with you, that causes me to, in my mind, question some things about you personally.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
If that is what you think, how can you possibly claim that God's perfect justice requires eternal conscious punishment?
Well it requires death, which you clearly agree with. So that brings us back to the nature of death and what its result is, which has always been the central point of disagreement between us.
I don't see that you answered the question.
Well, right, because ~ as should have been evident and based on what I have said before ~ the question itself is flawed.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
What makes you think God requires something WORSE than death, worse than annihilation?
Actually, I think, among other things, of course, God does something more -- far more -- graceful and loving than annihilation. I mean I realize that's the argument (one of them, anyway) people like you use His attribute of love to support annihilation, but it's misused... like I have said, speaking from our perspective -- or rather putting it in terms we can readily understand -- life imprisonment is, really, much worse than the death penalty
So is it more loving or worse?
Yes.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
THEREFORE, just because Adam was made in the image of God, doesn't mean that Adam had ALL the same attributes as God.
Yeah, I'm not sure how you got off on this rabbit trail (of sorts; surely not to say that it actually is a rabbit trail...
), but I have never said or insinuated anything remotely contradictory to what you say here. Adam and Eve (and thus we, as their progeny) are God's creation -- creatures, as opposed to the Creator.
Then why do you keep saying that because man was made in the image of God, man cannot be destroyed (annihilated) and must exist forever?
First of all, we disagree also regarding what being destroyed actually means. You know that, but you slipped it in there anyway. To be destroyed can mean something very different than being annihilated or wiped from existence, and you cannot deny that with any credibility. I say -- and Scripture (and any good dictionary) testifies to this, as I've demonstrated thoroughly (yes, I know you disagree) -- that to be destroyed means to be utterly ruined, and thus not wiped from existence, and the forever existence necessary follows from that without fail.[/quote]
Please note that in all of that you did not answer the question I asked. I bolded it (and underlined the pertinent part).[/quote]
Okay, fair enough. So, among
many other things...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
such as the facts that:
- we have all the same emotions, like anger, joy, happiness, and even jealousy, as God (but, unlike God, we experience them in less-than-holy ways)
- we are relational beings, as the triune Jehovah is relational among His three Persons (but unlike God's relationships, ours are flawed and sinful to some degree, at least for now)
- we want to glorify ourselves as God does (although our desires for our own glory are selfish and sinful, unlike His)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...we are all eternal. existing into eternity future (not eternity past of course, as God is; we are created) beings. This is one... well, four
... aspect(s) of being created in God's image. There are many, many more.
God is infinite, after all.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Hades gives up the dead in it BECAUSE the dead in it have been resurrected. Some are resurrected to life, some are resurrected to judgment and the second death. Yes, the judgment does occur after the (second) resurrection (which is why the sea, death and hades are giving up the dead in them - those dead are being resurrected, to stand before the throne, some being resurrected to life and some being resurrected to judgment and the second death).
Good...
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
B - the beast is not an actual living being. How could it then be tormented (as in tortured)?
Well John (and thus God) clearly refers to the Beast as a living being, so I can't really say anything to this except that it is what it is.
Might be another topic then, but...
Fine... although I will say, here, though, that John, in Revelation, depicts Satan as an unholy trinity, in opposition to the triune God. Ohhhh... that'll probably open a can of worms...
Well, not a
literal can of
literal worms...
... but certainly symbolic of a literal thing (topic)...
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Hades is a place... I don't know how it can even be mistaken as a living being? How can it feel pain and anguish? Places can be destroyed (as in, no longer exist), but how can it feel pain and anguish?
I don't know of anybody who disagrees with that, certainly not me. When Isaiah and Jesus speak of the "worm that will not die" and who possesses it ~ "their worm" ~ Hades is not referred to in... is not included in the plurality of people referred to by... is not included in the antecedent of... the personal pronoun 'their.' That pronoun refers directly to the men who have rebelled against God... unbelievers. I feel confident you will agree with that.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Eternal torment and anguish are not in view in Psalm 9:15-17
They are. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not in view. If I say, "Tammy went to town," obviously, Tammy when to town for some reason.
Or, well, experienced
something while there...
Except that the news is just reporting that Tammy went to town. You are adding (perhaps based on some gossip or rumor you heard from men), "Tammy went to town to rob a bank."
LOL! I'm adding nothing. You're putting words in my mouth.
EXACTLY!! Which is exactly what you are doing with Psalm 9:15-17.
Absolutely not.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Did you not say above that Christ has to return first (before) the resurrection? In which case it would have occurred between verses 31 and 32. But now you are saying the resurrection occurs first (before) Christ returns?
I don't believe these to be absolutely sequential events, but simultaneous, really, more or less. Generally speaking, Christ's return and the resurrection, even if they are not strictly simultaneous or strictly sequential, are both part of the same overarching event. And then, in very short order, all are gathered before ~ in front of ~ Christ, which is to say, as in Matthew 25:31-32, "(before Christ) sit(ing) on His glorious throne... (b)efore Him gathered all the nations... (having been by Christ) separate(d) one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats," and as in Revelation 20:11-12, "(before the) great white throne and Him seated on it, and the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books opened."
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
I think we are misunderstanding one another on this point, or at least on what we see as the immediate setting of this passage.
Yes, I think so. Or at least you're not completely understanding me, which I am willing to take even the bulk of the blame for. Hopefully, what I said immediately above makes things a bit more clear.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
The millennium or Revelation 20 stretches from Pentecost (about 2000 years ago) to Jesus's return (yet to happen).
Must disagree.
Sure you do. I'm well aware of that.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
The thousand years begins when Christ returns, gathers His own up to Him (meeting Him in the sky, along with the dead in Christ who were resurrected). Paul makes it clear that this has not happened yet.
Nope. Paul makes it clear (in 1 Thessalonians 4) that the second resurrection has not happened yet, his purpose being to calm the Thessalonians fear that if they are still alive when Christ returns they will be excluded. But he also makes clear in Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ as does Peter in 1 Peter 1:3 ~ that the first resurrection
has happened
for those who are in Christ. So does John, who also makes clear ~ all in Revelation 20:4-6 ~ that this first resurrection will continue to happen on an individual basis throughout this age, these last days (before Christ returns).
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 1Thess 4:16, 17
This is the second resurrection, not the first. Yes, I know you disagree (or at least pretty sure...). But it is what it is. Again, the first is what Paul talks about in Ephesians 2, Peter talks about in 1 Peter 1, and John talks about in Revelation 20:4-6 (not to mention what Jesus speaks of to Nicodemus in John 3).
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Those who are still alive at the time of His return go out to meet Him and usher Him in as the royalty He is (1 Thessalonians 4). In His return, He brings all the saints that have gone before with Him.
That is the first resurrection.
This is His return. These people who are caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, thus going out to meet Him in His return, along with the saints that have gone before who are coming with Jesus from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4), have
already, in their earthly lives:
- been born again ~ resurrected ~ of the Spirit (John 3)
- been made alive ~ resurrected ~ together (spiritually, no longer dead in sin) with Christ and raised up (resurrected) with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2)
- been born again ~ resurrected ~ to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1).
- come to life ~ been resurrected ~ and reigned with Christ for (over the course of) the "thousand years" (Revelation 20:4-6).
This is the first resurrection.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Then the resurrection, which is general -- some resurrected to eternal life and some to judgment -- takes place..
If by 'then' you mean only 'after', sure (though after the thousand years).
Yes, the second resurrection.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
But please note that this is not the 'general resurrection'. This is the second resurrection, the resurrection of the dead. There are not two resurrections for the same group of people; there are two resurrections for two groups of people (the first for Christians; the second for non-Christians).
Well, two groups, sure, but it's all one resurrection, the second. It's "general" in the sense that all experience it, as opposed to the first resurrection, which only God's elect experience. 'First resurrection' and 'second resurrection' here are to be understood as a reversal of the 'first death' and the 'second death.' To explain:
- The first resurrection is spiritual and only experienced by God's elect somewhere in the course of their earthly lives, and the second resurrection is physical and experienced by everyone at Jesus's return (simultaneous with or immediately after).
- The first death is physical and experienced by everyone somewhere in the course of (at the end of) their earthly lives, and the second death is spiritual and only experienced by those who are not among God's elect (as a result of the Judgment, which occurs shortly after Jesus's return and the second resurrection.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Then... "(b)efore Him (Jesus) will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left" (Matthew 25:31-32).
This occurs at the start of the thousand years.
Nope. When the "thousand years" are ended.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
The sheep and goats are people of the nations who are alive on the earth when Christ returns.
No, the whole groups of sheep and goats include those who are alive on the earth when Christ returns, but also those who have gone before ~ both those in Christ and those not in Christ. Then the Judgment occurs, which includes all, those on His right (all His sheep, both those still alive at His return and those who have gone before) and those on His left (all the goats, both those still alive at His return and those who have gone before).
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
The Judgment occurs at the end of the thousand years.
Agreed. I have been very clear in my agreement with this throughout this thread and others.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:05 pm
Then the sending away of the unrepentant (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:15)
The goats are sent away outside the kingdom (the outer darkness); the people who are resurrected to judgement and the second death are cast into the lake of fire. These are two different scenarios.
Nope. One and the same, depicted differently, but absolutely parallel.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Mainstream, orthodox Christianity teaches a great many falsehoods and has shed a great deal of innocent blood.
Unfortunately true ~ albeit not 'many,' but some, but by the Holy Spirit being corrected ~ but this is not one of them.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
I have no problem being far, far outside of that.
Well that's a problem, in my opinion. God certainly does not tell us individually to go rogue.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 pm
I am not part of that - I am part of Christ.
Sure. That's very othodox (conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right/true) of you. Very good. And all of orthodox Christianity would certainly ascribe to the same. And I do, too.
Grace and peace to you, Tammy.