#3 Jesus on Hell

[Wootah]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

#1 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38453
#2 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38457

[Tcg]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

This will be my third time answering this question. The weeping and gnashing of teeth may have occurred before annihilation. Imagine a group of folks gathered around a campfire when someone throws another log on the fire causing embers to rise and then fall around the group. Someone could make the statement, "this place is filled with embers." They of course would not be suggesting an everlasting shower of embers.

Following the fire example further, note verse 40. The parallel to the fiery furnace is weeds being burned with fire. Dried weeds burn up very quickly. The fire they created is exceedingly temporary.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

That depends on what one considers traditional doctrine. I've yet to see it described in any manner much less in one that supports the claim that it is indeed "traditional."


Tcg

[2timothy316]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

This will be my third time answering this question. The weeping and gnashing of teeth may have occurred before annihilation. Imagine a group of folks gathered around a campfire when someone throws another log on the fire causing embers to rise and then fall around the group. Someone could make the statement, "this place is filled with embers." They of course would not be suggesting an everlasting shower of embers.

Following the fire example further, note verse 40. The parallel to the fiery furnace is weeds being burned with fire. Dried weeds burn up very quickly. The fire they created is exceedingly temporary.

Seems to me that weeping and gnashing of teeth can happen before or even during annihilation. If we look at the several instances of God bringing judgement on people there was time to weep and gnash teeth. Think of the Great Flood. The water didn't just drown everyone in an instant. Imagine what they were thinking as it started to rain and water began to rise to their ankles, then their knees and then to their waists. Think of the last thoughts of Pharaoh as the walls of water in the Red Sea began to fall down around him. Imagine what the thoughts of the Amorites as giant hailstones started to rain down on them. How about Sodom and Gomorrah? What did they think as fire came down from the sky?

It seems the mistake is that people think that the parable means actual fire. As if the parable using symbolic wording with weeds, wheat and fire, suddenly changes to literal wording. As if people were actually going to be turned into weeds and wheat and literally bundled up. The burning of weeds would have been something the Jews would have seen numerous times. The burning of weeds wasn't to punish the weeds with fire forever, it was to simply remove them through destruction of fire. Jesus was just using the parable because it was something familiar to his disciples. The literal way that the wicked to be removed from the Earth could be any number of ways. Hailstone, disease, flood, fire from the sky...etc etc. All of which would give a person time to weep and gnash their teeth because they know they have been judged as weeds.

[1213]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?
...

I think others have already pointed out well that weeping and gnashing can happen, even if they don’t live eternally in hell.

Maybe the fire that burns is the idea that they are lost forever and can’t have anything anymore? After all, Bible tells about the fire this:

And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna [=”hell”].
James 3:6

[Tcg]

Maybe the fire that burns is the idea that they are lost forever and can’t have anything anymore?

There is no reason to speculate. The passage spells it out perfectly. Their pain is due to being thrown into the fiery furnace. The fire that burns is the fire that burns.


Tcg

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is a description of terrible suffering in hell, and it indicates that the suffering to be endured is not physical, but mental and spiritual, one of abject sadness, disappointment, isolation, and dispair. Elsewhere, it is described as anguish and torment (Luke 16:24, 25). A picture of this "anguish of the spirit" and "bitterness of (the) soul" experienced by Job in chapter 7 of that great book. Unlike Job, though, the anguish of the spirit and bitterness of the soul in those whose eternal dwelling place is hell will have no end; their "thirst" (Luke 16) will never be quenched or even assuaged. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" description appears several times in Matthew (8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30) and also in Luke (13:28). And, to your point, yes, one cannot physically suffer unless one is conscious and well aware of his or her predicament or situation. The one in this place is dead, having been placed under the eternal judgment of God, a place where His mercy, grace, and blessings are totally removed. Likewise, there are those among us today who are dead, spiritually speaking, but it is still possible for them to be given new life in the Holy Spirit, and even though they be dead, they still experience God's grace and blessings as is common to all people. The fire of verse 40 is symbolic of this judgment, which, again, is eternal and thus lasts forever in this very real place. This is the figurative "lake of fire" or Revelation 20, and is the second death, and is not in any way a cessation of existence.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

Well, it is, of course. It is understandable that the concept of hell and the suffering that will take place there -- for eternity, no less -- is abhorrent to some. It is utterly terrifying.

Grace and peace to all.

[Wootah]

Tcg and others,

If the weeping and gnashing of teeth are temporary.

If you were thrown into a fiery furnace how long would you weep for?
If you were thrown into a fiery furnace how long would you gnash your teeth for?
You might say the O in ouch but would you actually weep?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Tcg and others,

If the weeping and gnashing of teeth are temporary.

If you were thrown into a fiery furnace how long would you weep for?
If you were thrown into a fiery furnace how long would you gnash your teeth for?
You might say the O in ouch but would you actually weep?

They're not weeping and gnashing their teeth IN the fire (and I feel like you might be proving the point that the weeping and gnashing of teeth has nothing to do with hell OR the lake of fire. Dead people also don't weep or gnash their teeth). The weeping and gnashing of teeth comes before that, from being cast/weeded out of the Kingdom (and whilst others are invited in).



Peace again to you.

[Checkpoint]

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

In this way:

What is conveyed by traditional doctrine on judgment of hell, is not what this parable conveys.

The "place with weeping and gnashing teeth" is the Judgment seat of Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:10; Matthew 25:31-33; John 5:28-29.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth will occur during the Judgment, when they are judged against, and the penalty announced, which will obviously be before it is duly carried out.

[Checkpoint]

Maybe the fire that burns is the idea that they are lost forever and can’t have anything anymore?

There is no reason to speculate. The passage spells it out perfectly. Their pain is due to being thrown into the fiery furnace. The fire that burns is the fire that burns.


Tcg

Not just fire that burns, but fire that burns up, fire that consumes entirely.

Strong's Concordance

2618: katakaió: to burn up
Original Word: κατακαίω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katakaió
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ak-ah'-ee-o)
Definition: to burn up
Usage: I burn up, consume entirely.


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2618: κατακαίω

κατακαίω): imperfect 3 person plural κατέκαιον; future κατακαύσω; 1 aorist infinitive κατακαῦσαι; passive, present κατακαίομαι; 2 aorist κατεκαην; 2 future κατακαήσομαι (cf. Tdf. Proleg., p. 123; WH's Appendix, p. 170a); 1 future κατακαυθήσομαι (Kühner, 1:841; (Veitch, under the word καίω; Buttmann, 60 (53); Winers Grammar, 87 (83))); the Sept. chiefly for שָׂרַף; from Homer down; to burn up (see κατά, III. 4), consume by fire: τί, Matthew 13:30

The ible never describes God as "a tormenting fire" or "a torturing fire".

It does, however, describe Him as "a consuming fire".

Psalm 97:

2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; righteousness and justice are His throne’s foundation.

3 Fire goes before Him and consumes His foes on every side.

Psalm 18:

7 Then the earth shook and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains trembled; they were shaken because He burned with anger.
8 Smoke rose from His nostrils, and consuming fire came from His mouth; glowing coals blazed forth.

Hebrews 12:29

For our God is a consuming fire.