#3 Jesus on Hell

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#3 Jesus on Hell

Post #1

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Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
How can there be a place with weeping and gnashing teeth if all the people are dead or annihilated?

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

#1 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38453
#2 Jesus on hell: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38457
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #111

Post by PinSeeker »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:01 am --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. What would you offer as a definition for the three (spiritual death, physical death, second death)?

2. What is the sequence of the three in the course of a person's life/existence? And, relatedly, when do the three possibly happen to a person?

3. With regard to the second death, how do you understand the term 'second'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what I say:

1. Spiritual death is the complete absence of any life of or in the Holy Spirit. Adam and Eve had spiritual life before the Fall (Genesis 3) but indeed died spiritually, just as God said they would, no longer of the Holy Spirit. Post-Fall, all mere men, as the progeny of Adam and Eve, are born in this state, spiritually dead (though physically alive), devoid of life in the Holy Spirit, and in need of re-birth ~ to be born again of the Holy Spirit. Physical death is death of the physical; there is no life or consciousness in/of the body... this is the first death, and earthly life is no more. The second death is the spiritual death being made permanent, final, and irreversible even after the physical resurrection ~ no life in the Holy Spirit, in the presence of Christ, and devoid of the grace of the Father.

2. Spiritual death is the state that man is born into in this life ~ it is the natural human condition after the Fall of Adam. Physical death comes to all men at the conclusion of their earthly life. The second death comes after the resurrection to those on Jesus's left ~ on the wrong side of His judgment ~ and is the state of spiritual death made permanent, final, and irreversible.

3. Neither the initial state of absence of life in the Holy Spirit (because it is from birth) or the physical death (first death, appointed to all men) can be avoided, but the second death can be, if the individual repents and believes in his or her earthly life. If not, then at the final Judgment, this state of spiritual death is made permanent, irreversible, and final, which is the proper understanding of the term 'second' as it's used in Scripture.

Scripture is clear on these things.

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #112

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:36 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:01 am --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. What would you offer as a definition for the three (spiritual death, physical death, second death)?

2. What is the sequence of the three in the course of a person's life/existence? And, relatedly, when do the three possibly happen to a person?

3. With regard to the second death, how do you understand the term 'second'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what I say:

1. Spiritual death is the complete absence of any life of or in the Holy Spirit. Adam and Eve had spiritual life before the Fall (Genesis 3) but indeed died spiritually, just as God said they would, no longer of the Holy Spirit. Post-Fall, all mere men, as the progeny of Adam and Eve, are born in this state, spiritually dead (though physically alive), devoid of life in the Holy Spirit, and in need of re-birth ~ to be born again of the Holy Spirit. Physical death is death of the physical; there is no life or consciousness in/of the body... this is the first death, and earthly life is no more. The second death is the spiritual death being made permanent, final, and irreversible even after the physical resurrection ~ no life in the Holy Spirit, in the presence of Christ, and devoid of the grace of the Father.

2. Spiritual death is the state that man is born into in this life ~ it is the natural human condition after the Fall of Adam. Physical death comes to all men at the conclusion of their earthly life. The second death comes after the resurrection to those on Jesus's left ~ on the wrong side of His judgment ~ and is the state of spiritual death made permanent, final, and irreversible.

3. Neither the initial state of absence of life in the Holy Spirit (because it is from birth) or the physical death (first death, appointed to all men) can be avoided, but the second death can be, if the individual repents and believes in his or her earthly life. If not, then at the final Judgment, this state of spiritual death is made permanent, irreversible, and final, which is the proper understanding of the term 'second' as it's used in Scripture.

Scripture is clear on these things.

Grace and peace to all.
I agree that is simply what you say.

And based on what you say above, every human ever born is condemned to everlasting life as a consequence of being born a human.

But God's ways are just and true:
Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Since what you say is not just and true, it cannot be what God inspired to be written in the scriptures.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #113

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #112]
I agree that is simply what you say.

And based on what you say above, every human ever born is condemned to everlasting life as a consequence of being born a human.

But God's ways are just and true:
Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Since what you say is not just and true, it cannot be what God inspired to be written in the scriptures.
Please quote again what Pinseker posted that you say here "is not just and true".

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #114

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:35 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #112]
I agree that is simply what you say.

And based on what you say above, every human ever born is condemned to everlasting life as a consequence of being born a human.

But God's ways are just and true:
Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Since what you say is not just and true, it cannot be what God inspired to be written in the scriptures.
Please quote again what Pinseker posted that you say here "is not just and true".
PinSeeker wrote: 1. Spiritual death is the complete absence of any life of or in the Holy Spirit. Adam and Eve had spiritual life before the Fall (Genesis 3) but indeed died spiritually, just as God said they would, no longer of the Holy Spirit. Post-Fall, all mere men, as the progeny of Adam and Eve, are born in this state, spiritually dead (though physically alive), devoid of life in the Holy Spirit, and in need of re-birth ~ to be born again of the Holy Spirit. Physical death is death of the physical; there is no life or consciousness in/of the body... this is the first death, and earthly life is no more. The second death is the spiritual death being made permanent, final, and irreversible even after the physical resurrection ~ no life in the Holy Spirit, in the presence of Christ, and devoid of the grace of the Father.

2. Spiritual death is the state that man is born into in this life ~ it is the natural human condition after the Fall of Adam. Physical death comes to all men at the conclusion of their earthly life. The second death comes after the resurrection to those on Jesus's left ~ on the wrong side of His judgment ~ and is the state of spiritual death made permanent, final, and irreversible.

3. Neither the initial state of absence of life in the Holy Spirit (because it is from birth) or the physical death (first death, appointed to all men) can be avoided, but the second death can be, if the individual repents and believes in his or her earthly life. If not, then at the final Judgment, this state of spiritual death is made permanent, irreversible, and final, which is the proper understanding of the term 'second' as it's used in Scripture.

Scripture is clear on these things.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #115

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pm And based on what you say above, every human ever born is condemned to everlasting life as a consequence of being born a human.
Many times, myth-one, perception is not reality. What you say here is not really based on what I said above in any way, but only a contortion of it, and therefore quite the opposite.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #116

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:21 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pm And based on what you say above, every human ever born is condemned to everlasting life as a consequence of being born a human.
Many times, myth-one, perception is not reality. What you say here is not really based on what I said above in any way, but only a contortion of it, and therefore quite the opposite.

Grace and peace to you.
In part 1, Adam & Eve are "spiritually dead" but still alive.

In part 2, all mankind is born "spiritually dead" but alive.

And in part 3, nonbelievers are "spiritually dead" but still alive.

Where is anyone actually dead in what you say?

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #117

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #116]

Do you believe God to have lied to Adam and Eve in the following verse?

"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Genesis 2:17)

If you do not think God lied, then what do you think He meant? What really happened when Adam and Eve ate? I mean, we can all read Genesis 3 and plainly see that Adam and Eve remained physically alive in full existence, even when expelled from Eden. But did they die, as God promised them they would, in that very day? Or not? Did He lie to them? Or perhaps He was mistaken about what would happen...?

See, it strikes me as a great irony that you accuse folks of believing Satan's lie to Eve. Even Eve knew full well what God had said in Genesis 2:17, because she repeated it to Satan in Genesis 3:3. However, in response, Satan did not lie to Eve, per se, but deceived her, (as we learn from Paul later) into disbelieving what God had said in Genesis 2:17. And of course Satan succeeded in that deception. His deception to Eve was that God was lying in Genesis 2:17, and some are still falling victim to that same deception. Adam and Eve did indeed die, that very day, just as God told them, so we know from very early in the Bible at the very least that true death is something other than non-existence.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #118

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:41 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #116]

Do you believe God to have lied to Adam and Eve in the following verse?

"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Genesis 2:17)

If you do not think God lied, then what do you think He meant? What really happened when Adam and Eve ate? I mean, we can all read Genesis 3 and plainly see that Adam and Eve remained physically alive in full existence, even when expelled from Eden. But did they die, as God promised them they would, in that very day? Or not? Did He lie to them?
A day to God is like a thousand years.
But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, . . . (II Peter 3:8)
Adam died at the age of 930 earthly years -- well within a God "day":
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years... (Genesis 5:5)
So no, God did not lie. In fact, God cannot lie:
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:41 pm See, it strikes me as a great irony that you accuse folks of believing Satan's lie to Eve. Even Eve knew full well what God had said in Genesis 2:17, because she repeated it to Satan in Genesis 3:3. However, in response, Satan did not lie to Eve, per se, but deceived her, (as we learn from Paul later) into disbelieving what God had said in Genesis 2:17. And of course Satan succeeded in that deception. His deception to Eve was that God was lying in Genesis 2:17, and some are still falling victim to that same deception. Adam and Eve did indeed die, that very day, just as God told them, so we know from very early in the Bible at the very least that true death is something other than non-existence.
What are you even talking about?

The serpent told Eve ye shall not surely die:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)
The serpent did not say Eve would not die within the day!!

He said she would never die!!

Satan wants mankind to believe the lie of mankind's immortality. The immortal soul myth.

Most Christians believe that lie to this very day!

Satan tricks mankind into committing the same sin which he committed. By assigning to ourselves the godly characteristic of immortality, we make ourselves like God. Satan rebelled against God because he wanted to be like the most high:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)
Assuming to oneself the rights or characteristics of God is called blasphemy in the Bible:
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:31-33)
Thus Satan gets mankind to commit blasphemy by assuming to ourselves the godly characteristic of immortality. This is dangerously close to committing the unpardonable sin:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)
And this is the mechanism for sealing the scriptures from man's understanding!

If you believe that you live forever, you can never understand the scriptures which repeatedly state that without salvation mankind will die.

No man or woman is born with any immortality. They are born mortal and may achieve immortality.

Immortality is the reward of the saved, not a birthright for all mankind.

We are not born with our reward.

That is the meaning of the serpent's false statement that man will not die.

So the serpent lied to Eve! As evidenced by your three points above regarding "non-death" death, you believe it also.

The lie is that she and all mankind are born with an immortal soul.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #119

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:55 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:41 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #116]

Do you believe God to have lied to Adam and Eve in the following verse?

"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Genesis 2:17)

If you do not think God lied, then what do you think He meant? What really happened when Adam and Eve ate? I mean, we can all read Genesis 3 and plainly see that Adam and Eve remained physically alive in full existence, even when expelled from Eden. But did they die, as God promised them they would, in that very day? Or not? Did He lie to them?
A day to God is like a thousand years.
LOL!! Okay, are referring to Psalm 90 and to Peter's referral to Psalm 90 (whether you know it or not). But you're excluding the other half of that same verse (2 Peter 3:8), which says... well I'll quote the whole thing;
  • "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
David puts it this way in Psalm 90:4 (and this is actually a prayer of Moses):
  • "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night."
Yes, one day is like ~ or as ~ a thousand years, and a thousand years like ~ or as ~ one day. I added the bolding and the underlining to make two points, and those are that 1.) to God, time has no real relevance to him one way or the other, that it may seem to us that what He's doing may be taking him a long, long time, but to Him, the great I AM, it is as if it is already done; God is the potentate (creator, autocratic ruler) of time, and 2. ) a thousand years, while like a day to Him ~ a small amount of time, even no real passing of time at all ~ is still to us a thousand years and not a day; a day is still 24 hours long. Moses and David and Peter are all acknowledging the same thing, making the same point, that God ~ though it may sometimes seem like it to us ~ does not delay in carrying out His plans. They are in no way conveying to us that a thousand years is actually a day, or that a day is actually a thousand years, to anybody, even God. So no, when God said to Adam and Eve (in Genesis 2:17) that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would die that very day, He actually meant they would die that very day.

Hey, God says He created the universe in six days. Does that really mean it took Him 6000 years? Of course not, but by your "logic," that would be the case. God also says Jesus was in the tomb three days. Does that mean He was really resurrected 3000 years after His crucifixion? Of course not, but by your "logic," that would be the case.

I wholeheartedly agree that God cannot lie, but that is ~ in effect ~ what you are saying. Either that, or that He was merely mistaken. But, of course, neither is the case.
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:55 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:41 pm See, it strikes me as a great irony that you accuse folks of believing Satan's lie to Eve. Even Eve knew full well what God had said in Genesis 2:17, because she repeated it to Satan in Genesis 3:3. However, in response, Satan did not lie to Eve, per se, but deceived her, (as we learn from Paul later) into disbelieving what God had said in Genesis 2:17. And of course Satan succeeded in that deception. His deception to Eve was that God was lying in Genesis 2:17, and some are still falling victim to that same deception. Adam and Eve did indeed die, that very day, just as God told them, so we know from very early in the Bible at the very least that true death is something other than non-existence.
What are you even talking about?
You understand, myth-one; you're just avoiding the question above, or refusing to face up to what God has actually said.
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:55 pm The serpent told Eve ye shall not surely die... He said she would never die!
No, he was trying to get Eve to think that what God said, that Eve had just repeated to him, was untrue. He was trying to get her to believe that she would not die in that very day. So Eve was deceived, as Paul later says (2 Timothy 2:14 ~ "...the woman was deceived..."), so Satan was successful in his deception. But still, God did not lie about what would happen that very day that they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They died, just like God said they would, not 1000 years later, but that very day. So, yet again, true death is unmistakably something different to God than what you suppose it to mean. True death ~ 1.) the death that Adam and Eve both died that very day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, 2.) the death that all men and women are born into when they enter into this life, and 3.) the second death ~ is unmistakably not mere cessation of existence.
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:55 pm Satan wants mankind to believe the lie of mankind's immortality. The immortal soul myth... You believe it also. The lie is that she and all mankind are born with an immortal soul.
You continue to confuse/conflate two entirely different things, myth-one (and you are not alone in this, obviously). Immortality and eternality are two entirely different things/concepts:

1.) The physical body is mortal, of course, and not immortal. The soul, or the self, however, cannot be referred to as mortal or immortal. Paul asks in Romans 7, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" So from that we should easily see that our selves and our bodies are two different things. In this life ~ and after the resurrection to come, actually ~ The self merely inhabits the body, which is the "garment of skin" that we ~ our selves ~ are "clothed" with, as we read in Genesis 3:21. So a soul cannot be referred to as mortal or immortal; no one is doing that. Only the body can be referred to as mortal or immortal, and we all know that no body is immortal.

2.) We ~ our selves ~ are eternal, because we ~ all of us, believer and unbeliever alike ~ are made in the image of God.

Grace and peace to you.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: #3 Jesus on Hell

Post #120

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:13 pm
2.) We ~ our selves ~ are eternal, because we ~ all of us, believer and unbeliever alike ~ are made in the image of God.

OK, you believe mankind are eternal or everlasting beings.

The serpent makes the statement that the human Eve will not surely die, and you are in agreement with that statement as immortal beings cannot die.

A few verses farther down, the Lord God states that mankind is mortal:
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)
We both agree that God cannot lie.

And God claims that He separated mankind from the tree of life lest they eat from it and live forever.

If God separated them from the tree of life so that they would not eat from it and live forever, then they were not created immortal.

Since I believe God cannot lie, I also believe Him when He states that mankind was not created as eternal beings!

====================================================

If you believe that God cannot lie, then you cannot also believe that God made a false statement in Genesis 3:22-23!

His statement in Genesis 3:22-23 confirms that mankind was created as mortal beings.

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