Identifying Free Will

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William
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Identifying Free Will

Post #1

Post by William »

Fundamental to the Christian Belief Systems shared by a majority of those calling themselves "Christians"

Q: Is "Free Will" the same thing as "The Ego".

Re: Wikipedia
Free Will:
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.[1][2]

Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. It is also connected with the concepts of advice, persuasion, deliberation, and prohibition. Traditionally, only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame. Whether free will exists, what it is and the implications of whether it exists or not are some of the longest running debates of philosophy and religion. Some conceive of free will as the right to act outside of external influences or wishes.
Re: Wikipedia
The Ego:
The ego (Latin for "I",[19] German: Ich)[20] acts according to the reality principle; i.e., it seeks to please the id's drive in realistic ways that, in the long term, bring benefit, rather than grief.[21] At the same time, Freud concedes that as the ego "attempts to mediate between id and reality, it is often obliged to cloak the [unconscious] commands of the id with its own preconscious rationalizations, to conceal the id's conflicts with reality, to profess...to be taking notice of reality even when the id has remained rigid and unyielding."[22] The reality principle that operates the ego is a regulating mechanism that enables the individual to delay gratifying immediate needs and function effectively in the real world. An example would be to resist the urge to grab other people's belongings, but instead to purchase those items.

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #51

Post by Kylie »

Miles wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:43 pm
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:27 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:50 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:14 am
Miles wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:39 pm
Kylie wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:20 am
But since you asked, quantum mechanics shows that the world is fundamentally unpredictable at the subatomic level. And since the subatomic can affect the macroscopic world (think Schrodinger's cat, for example), that means that there are aspects of the world we experience that are unpredictable and therefore are not set in stone.
In regard to the issue of quantum effects having any bearing on the operation of the mind, incorrect.

"The main argument against the quantum mind proposition is that quantum states in the brain would decohere before they reached a spatial or temporal scale at which they could be useful for neural processing. This argument was elaborated by the physicist, Max Tegmark. Based on his calculations Tegmark concluded that quantum systems in the brain decohere quickly and cannot control brain function."
source: Wikipedia


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Irrelevant. It can happen to ANYTHING and it would render predestination impossible.

And your evidence is ____________________________________________________________________ .


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If even a single event can be non-predestined, then that event could negate the possibility of something that is predestined. For example, Schrodinger's Cat as I mentioned in post 36. If I am predestined to pat the cat tomorrow, then how could it be that the cat could die today? The random event of the atom decaying would result in the death of the cat, and the event that I was predestined to do tomorrow would now be impossible.
Okay, then the "ANYTHING" you mention is me making a right hand turn and not a left-hand turn when I reach Bryant Avenue. So how do quantum mechanical events render my right-hand turn an impossibility?


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What is this? If I can't explain something in any conceivable situation, then it isn't correct?

Perhaps Schrodinger's Cat lived, escaped and ran out across the road, causing an accident that blocked off part of Bryant Avenue, meaning you couldn't turn right since there was an overturned truck blocking both lanes.

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #52

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:30 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:31 pm
William wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:53 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:12 am
William wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:54 am
Kylie wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:20 amOut of curiosity, why do you think free will is NOT real?
I have not found nor been shown any evidence of it existing as an actual property of the Universe. As far as I can tell, it is a fictional invention.
What would you accept as evidence for free will?
Having it identified would be a good start.
Both Miles and William have defined it as, "the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded."

I'm happy to use that definition if you'd like.

There seems to be no logical reason to even refer to it as 'free' will, if the same definition can apply to simply having will/being willful.
Are you suggesting that being able to FREELY choose according to one's WILL isn't enough to call it free will?

But since you never gave an answer, how would you define free will? What does it need in order for you to consider it "free"?

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #53

Post by William »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:18 am
William wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:30 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:31 pm
William wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:53 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:12 am
William wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:54 am
Kylie wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:20 amOut of curiosity, why do you think free will is NOT real?
I have not found nor been shown any evidence of it existing as an actual property of the Universe. As far as I can tell, it is a fictional invention.
What would you accept as evidence for free will?
Having it identified would be a good start.
Both Miles and William have defined it as, "the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded."

I'm happy to use that definition if you'd like.

There seems to be no logical reason to even refer to it as 'free' will, if the same definition can apply to simply having will/being willful.
Are you suggesting that being able to FREELY choose according to one's WILL isn't enough to call it free will?
Can you give an example of where the use of will might be considered NOT to be used freely?
But since you never gave an answer, how would you define free will? What does it need in order for you to consider it "free"?
I started this thread to investigate the notion of adding 'free' to "will", to see if anyone could identify it and show why it is necessary to say that one has "free will", rather than simple refer to it as one has will.
I personally think the will has to do with what an individual really is - that which is able to choose. To act according to ones will. To have the ability to chose to do something within the parameters set by the landscape of ones situation.

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #54

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:13 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:43 pmOkay, then the "ANYTHING" you mention is me making a right hand turn and not a left-hand turn when I reach Bryant Avenue. So how do quantum mechanical events render my right-hand turn an impossibility?
I think his idea is that since all events are connected, if some of them are random (and not predestined) then all of them are.

An atom of carbon 14 might have decayed and shot out a single beta particle at the precise instant where it would pass through some guy's skin and give him an itch. He decides he's itchy and sweaty in addition to the headache he already has and he actually wants to go home, so instead of making Bryant Avenue a through street, he made the easier choice and decided not to invoke eminent domain and deal with the paperwork to seize a property that was in the way. So, though randomness, there now isn't a right turn at that junction; you can only go straight or left.
Thing is, according to the information I presented in post 38, which I have no reason to doubt:

"The main argument against the quantum mind proposition is that quantum states in the brain would decohere before they reached a spatial or temporal scale at which they could be useful for neural processing. This argument was elaborated by the physicist, Max Tegmark. Based on his calculations Tegmark concluded that quantum systems in the brain decohere quickly and cannot control brain function."
source: Wikipedia

no single beta particle is going to give anyone an itch, or anything else.

Yes, that's contrived, but you get the idea.

However, I don't think this gives the meaning people are seeking to the term "free will" - it just means there's not a script. That's not what I think free will ought to mean.
And I don't believe it does. Absolute randomness doesn't impart freedom to anyone's will. As far as affecting the mind it's just a different form of deterministic activity.


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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #55

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:34 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:18 am
William wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:30 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:31 pm
William wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:53 am
Kylie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:12 am
William wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:54 am
Kylie wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:20 amOut of curiosity, why do you think free will is NOT real?
I have not found nor been shown any evidence of it existing as an actual property of the Universe. As far as I can tell, it is a fictional invention.
What would you accept as evidence for free will?
Having it identified would be a good start.
Both Miles and William have defined it as, "the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded."

I'm happy to use that definition if you'd like.

There seems to be no logical reason to even refer to it as 'free' will, if the same definition can apply to simply having will/being willful.
Are you suggesting that being able to FREELY choose according to one's WILL isn't enough to call it free will?
Can you give an example of where the use of will might be considered NOT to be used freely?
But since you never gave an answer, how would you define free will? What does it need in order for you to consider it "free"?
I started this thread to investigate the notion of adding 'free' to "will", to see if anyone could identify it and show why it is necessary to say that one has "free will", rather than simple refer to it as one has will.
I personally think the will has to do with what an individual really is - that which is able to choose. To act according to ones will. To have the ability to chose to do something within the parameters set by the landscape of ones situation.
But can they do it freely?

If one is not acting according to their will freely, then how are they acting according to their will at all?

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #56

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:02 pmAbsolute randomness doesn't impart freedom to anyone's will. As far as affecting the mind it's just a different form of deterministic activity.
I agree.

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #57

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #56]

Are you able to provide an example of someone not acting according to thier will?

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #58

Post by Miles »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:34 pm
William wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:34 pm
I started this thread to investigate the notion of adding 'free' to "will", to see if anyone could identify it and show why it is necessary to say that one has "free will", rather than simple refer to it as one has will.
I personally think the will has to do with what an individual really is - that which is able to choose. To act according to ones will. To have the ability to chose to do something within the parameters set by the landscape of ones situation.
But can they do it freely?

If one is not acting according to their will freely, then how are they acting according to their will at all?
Curious. what do you consider the will to be?


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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #59

Post by William »

Miles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:55 am
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:34 pm
William wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:34 pm
I started this thread to investigate the notion of adding 'free' to "will", to see if anyone could identify it and show why it is necessary to say that one has "free will", rather than simple refer to it as one has will.
I personally think the will has to do with what an individual really is - that which is able to choose. To act according to ones will. To have the ability to chose to do something within the parameters set by the landscape of ones situation.
But can they do it freely?

If one is not acting according to their will freely, then how are they acting according to their will at all?
Curious. what do you consider the will to be?


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My own [short] answer to your question, is that I think the will has to do with who we are rather than something we have.

My longer answer includes ideas about Ego-personality, something I think you mentioned that did not want to get into.

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Re: Identifying Free Will

Post #60

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 am [Replying to Kylie in post #56]

Are you able to provide an example of someone not acting according to thier will?
Let's define "will" first.

I'd say that someone who is being forced to do some action that they do not want to be doing is not acting according to their will. For example, if Bill has kidnapped John's daughter and says, "John, I'll kill your daughter unless you rob the bank," I'd argue that John is robbing the bank according to Bill's will, not his own.

Or, if you want to be pedantic about it, if I get a kid's hand and force them to hit themselves, that kid is not acting according to their free will. But I hope you won't be that pedantic about it, since it's pretty clear what I mean.

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