Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

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Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #1

Post by William »

Q: Given the information available, how can anyone claim that Jesus was ever really a human being, other than the form he occupied appeared to those who saw it, to be human?

Some bullet points re that information available.





° He was not the off-spring of two human parents.





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° He remembered a prior existence and spoke about it to his followers, often.





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° He was able to do things which appeared to be magic, but were actually miracles, because they were not the product of human invention [underhanded trickery] but rather the product of some type of channeling. [overhanded [divine] trickery]




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The above examples are enough to get the ball rolling...

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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #101

Post by William »

[Replying to Mattathias in post #98]
According to the actual story, “Yes - he was a mortal human person. Yes, - he is now an immortal human person.”
BE that as it may, how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.

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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #102

Post by Eloi »

William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:35 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:23 pm
William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:17 pm (...) it is better to conclude that Jesus did not have a Genuine Human Experience. (...)
You can "conclude" for yourself whatever fits you. Other thing is if that is true. Anyway, Jesus was NOT an imperfect man like we are, but all human beings were supposed to be like the human Jesus, like the pre-fall Adam. That will happen in the paradise when humans will reach perfection again.
I conclude then, that until such evidence presents itself, it is an unsupported claim about "what will happen one day" and has no direct bearing on the subject of the OP re 'related argument'
Well, you need to study the Bible with a Jehovah's Witness to know all details that the Bible teaches. Anyway, where did you originally know Jesus from if not that the Bible talked about him in the first place? It is free of charge while theologians will charge an eye. 🤓

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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #103

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 pm
William wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:49 am
William wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:43 amBiblical Jesus makes it clear that his inspiration came from who he called his Father.

So do billions of other people.
Their claims are all different to Jesus's claim, as none of those billions I have encountered, claim to have gained their knowledge prior to becoming Human.
I am referring to prayer, not any "prior knowledge".

Jesus did not have power of His own to heal people, raise people from the dead, and perform other miracles. We can know this because Jesus prayed! If He was a God during His thirty-three years on the earth, He could have performed such feats directly with His own godly powers. Since He was a man this was not the case. He had to pray to God His Father to perform acts beyond His human capabilities.

Billions of religionists of various religions gain inspiration from prayer on a daily basis.
So in relation to point #3 in the OP;
He was able to do things which appeared to be magic, but were actually miracles, because they were not the product of human invention [underhanded trickery] but rather the product of some type of channeling. [overhanded [divine] trickery]

You are saying that he wasn't born with those abilities but was gifted them after the fact, by asking for them and that even then they were not his powers but he was acting as a channel and the miracles were performed by the one who was asked [through prayer]?

This implies that anyone can be used as a conduit for said abilities by asking [through prayer], and that the argument is really that those of us who do not channel such power either by not asking or by being rejected, are not actually having a genuine Human Experience.

Is that what you are arguing?
  1. A human prays to God.
  2. Item #1 is a human experience.
  3. The prayer is answered.
  4. Item #3 is a human experience.
  5. The Prayer is unanswered or denied.
  6. Item #5 is a human experience.
So are you arguing that unanswered human prayers (item # 5) are not genuine human experiences?
William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pm Are you also arguing that Jesus did not really have prior memories but was given those memories as part of his evolving relationship with The Father during the course/evolution of his Human Experience?
Certainly He knew what His mission was.

But I do not know if His mission was known to Him from prior memories or conveyed somehow after birth.

Who cares?
W wrote:Given the information available, how can anyone claim that Jesus was ever really a human being, other than the form he occupied appeared to those who saw it, to be human?
Given the massive amount of information available on the life and times of Jesus Christ, He certainly lived and died as a human.

If that is so, then He certainly had at least one human experience. He died.

Can you prove otherwise?

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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #104

Post by Mattathias »

William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:38 pmBE that as it may, how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.
I dispute the points in the OP. I’ve stated my position on scripture presenting Jesus as a unique, but nevertheless “genuine,” human person - a minority view (considered “heretical” by the majority) in Christianity.

A unique / genuine human person clearly has genuine human experiences.

Considered from the perspective of the majority view in Christianity, your question isn’t about a unique / genuine human person. Your question from that perspective is about a divine person who, that theology teaches, assumed impersonal human nature.

How can a human person have a genuine human experience? How can such a person not? That’s where I am.

How can a divine person who assumed an impersonal human nature have a genuine human experience? That’s what you’re trying to get at. That’s where the majority, but not all in Christianity, are.
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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #105

Post by Mattathias »

My contention: The “biblical Jesus” is a human person.

The majority opinion in Christian theology is that Jesus is fully God, fully man - that he was never, is not now, and never will be a human person. This is clearly and unequivocally stated in writings by ancient and modern Christian writers. If that is doubted or outright rejected then I will post documentation showing that it is in fact the case.
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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #106

Post by William »

[Replying to Mattathias in post #104]
how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.
I dispute the points in the OP.
In what way are you disputing those points.
I’ve stated my position on scripture presenting Jesus as a unique, but nevertheless “genuine,” human person - a minority view (considered “heretical” by the majority) in Christianity.

A unique / genuine human person clearly has genuine human experiences.
The argument is that one can easily be distracted by the costume and make assumptions which clearly contradict biblical Jesus' own telling of who he is.

Not 'what he was at the time' but WHO he was and had always been.
Considered from the perspective of the majority view in Christianity, your question isn’t about a unique / genuine human person. Your question from that perspective is about a divine person who, that theology teaches, assumed impersonal human nature.
Yes - that is the story which is presented, and thus all we have to go by.
How can a human person have a genuine human experience? How can such a person not? That’s where I am.
The points of the OP [which you dispute] tell it as it is.

How can a Divine Being who incarnates into a Human form and retains his sense and nature of divinity, even consider themselves, that they had a genuine Human Experience?

What Jesus had was a divine experience within the form of a Human container, itself contained upon a Global platform, itself contained in a Spiral Disk platform, itself contained in...we are not sure as nobody currently knows...it is the mystery and clearly Jesus was a Mystic - something else which Christians tend to look past, probably because it appears too much like "Paganism" to their Human senses...and Jesus was no "Pagan"!
How can a divine person who assumed an impersonal human nature have a genuine human experience? That’s what you’re trying to get at. That’s where the majority, but not all in Christianity, are.
Well the majority rule, so I investigate their claims accordingly.

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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #107

Post by Mattathias »

William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:32 pm [Replying to Mattathias in post #104]
how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.
I dispute the points in the OP.
In what way are you disputing those points.
I’ve stated my position on scripture presenting Jesus as a unique, but nevertheless “genuine,” human person - a minority view (considered “heretical” by the majority) in Christianity.

A unique / genuine human person clearly has genuine human experiences.
The argument is that one can easily be distracted by the costume and make assumptions which clearly contradict biblical Jesus' own telling of who he is.

Not 'what he was at the time' but WHO he was and had always been.
Considered from the perspective of the majority view in Christianity, your question isn’t about a unique / genuine human person. Your question from that perspective is about a divine person who, that theology teaches, assumed impersonal human nature.
Yes - that is the story which is presented, and thus all we have to go by.
How can a human person have a genuine human experience? How can such a person not? That’s where I am.
The points of the OP [which you dispute] tell it as it is.

How can a Divine Being who incarnates into a Human form and retains his sense and nature of divinity, even consider themselves, that they had a genuine Human Experience?

What Jesus had was a divine experience within the form of a Human container, itself contained upon a Global platform, itself contained in a Spiral Disk platform, itself contained in...we are not sure as nobody currently knows...it is the mystery and clearly Jesus was a Mystic - something else which Christians tend to look past, probably because it appears too much like "Paganism" to their Human senses...and Jesus was no "Pagan"!
How can a divine person who assumed an impersonal human nature have a genuine human experience? That’s what you’re trying to get at. That’s where the majority, but not all in Christianity, are.
Well the majority rule, so I investigate their claims accordingly.
The biblical Jesus isn’t a divine person; he is a human person.

Your question is for the majority and their theology. I don’t go by their story. I’ll leave them to it, as it’s their story which you want to pursue.
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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #108

Post by Eloi »

William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:31 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #94]
He did not occupy a carcass as a human, he WAS BORN as a human.
As I actually said, He [Spirit] occupied a human form - not that he 'human' occupied a human carcass. A spirit occupying a human form can experience being born through the portal provided, which does not mean that his life as a Human was a genuine Human experience.
You are saying exactly the opposite of what I am telling you ... and I DO KNOW what the Bible teaches. The human Jesus was a small cell before growing as a child inside his mother. He didn't went out of there thinking how unconfortable and small room was there compared to where he was, because he was just a new person, a human one and he did not recuperate the heavenly memories until he was anointed with the spirit of God at his baptism. When he was born his mind had a reset, and some years later a memory recovery.
William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:31 pm
Obviously, a human IS NOT a spirit being like he was.
Well actually, it is not obvious at all.
It is to me. Spirits have not physical bodies like we have. Spirits do not need to learn to walk and talk, they do not grow with time, etc. Bible talks about Jesus as "coming in the flesh" (1 John 4:2,3; 2 John 1:7).
William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:31 pm
He is not a human with a fleshy body any more. He regained his nature he had before coming here to born as human ... and more.
You write as if you think that one loses ones nature [as Spirit] when one goes through a Human Experience.

Jesus clearly tells it differently. He claims to have maintained his nature [understanding himself as Spirit in Human Form and saying so] regardless of the Human Experience.
I don't know where you got these ideas from ... NOT from the Bible, sure thing. Nobody can be spirit and flesh at the same time, although the Bible mentions spirits that temporarily "put on" a body to make themselves visible, but they were still spirits "inside" those bodies. Jesus was not; he was born as human.
Phil. 2:6,7
(...) he was existing in God’s form (...) he emptied himself (...) and became human.
William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:31 pmWe - on the other hand - lack all knowledge of any prior existence. We start off in "Blank Slate Default Position" which is what allows for us to have a Genuine Human Experience.
Not we, Jehovah's Witnesses. We know a lot about Jesus' prior existence. You should have some Bible classes with one of us to learn what it seems you had not from others.

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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #109

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Eloi wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:44 pm Well, you need to study the Bible with a Jehovah's Witness to know all details that the Bible teaches.
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Re: Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

Post #110

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 pm
William wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:17 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:49 am
William wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:43 amBiblical Jesus makes it clear that his inspiration came from who he called his Father.

So do billions of other people.
Their claims are all different to Jesus's claim, as none of those billions I have encountered, claim to have gained their knowledge prior to becoming Human.
I am referring to prayer, not any "prior knowledge".

Jesus did not have power of His own to heal people, raise people from the dead, and perform other miracles. We can know this because Jesus prayed! If He was a God during His thirty-three years on the earth, He could have performed such feats directly with His own godly powers. Since He was a man this was not the case. He had to pray to God His Father to perform acts beyond His human capabilities.

Billions of religionists of various religions gain inspiration from prayer on a daily basis.
So in relation to point #3 in the OP;
He was able to do things which appeared to be magic, but were actually miracles, because they were not the product of human invention [underhanded trickery] but rather the product of some type of channeling. [overhanded [divine] trickery]

You are saying that he wasn't born with those abilities but was gifted them after the fact, by asking for them and that even then they were not his powers but he was acting as a channel and the miracles were performed by the one who was asked [through prayer]?

This implies that anyone can be used as a conduit for said abilities by asking [through prayer], and that the argument is really that those of us who do not channel such power either by not asking or by being rejected, are not actually having a genuine Human Experience.
Very true.....what you said about Jesus getting his power from his Father, and could not do anything by his own initiative. But no....not just anyone can be used as a conduit for those abilities from Jehovah. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God and the best that could ever be offered. He was sent from heaven and was a perfect man. No imperfect, sinful human that descended from Adam could take the place of Jesus Christ.

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