Prayer and God's will

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AgnosticBoy
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Prayer and God's will

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Post by AgnosticBoy »

I've been told by some Christians that prayer is not about our will being done but God's will.

If true, then what is the point of praying for what you want?

Is the above view simply an excuse for unanswered prayers? Like if someone is in the hospital. The family prays for a recovery, but the patient dies, is it right to just say it was God's will for the life to end? Is this how answers to prayers work?
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Re: Prayer and God's will

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Post by Miles »

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Considering god's omniscience I always thought prayer was a waste of time. He would already know what we want/need and what we are thankful for. No?


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Re: Prayer and God's will

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Post by 2timothy316 »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:57 am I've been told by some Christians that prayer is not about our will being done but God's will.

If true, then what is the point of praying for what you want?
Are these selfish wants or something you want for the good of everyone?
Is the above view simply an excuse for unanswered prayers?
Do you think God should answer yes to everything?
Like if someone is in the hospital. The family prays for a recovery, but the patient dies, is it right to just say it was God's will for the life to end? Is this how answers to prayers work?
Do you think that when a person dies that's it? Do you think that the family will never see them again? What if the recovery was to come later even years after their death?

For a bonus question, using the Bible to answer, what do you think God's will is for everyone?

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Re: Prayer and God's will

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Post by AgnosticBoy »

2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm Are these selfish wants or something you want for the good of everyone?
It is selfish in the sense of the person being concerned for his or her well-being. That can be okay in some cases, like if a person is dying of cancer and wants to be cured of it.

Does what the person want in that case matter to God? Is it wrong for the person to be asking God for what he or she wants (i.e. to be cured) as opposed to what God wants (which may be to let the person suffer and/or die)?
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm Do you think God should answer yes to everything?
I don't think He should.
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote:Like if someone is in the hospital. The family prays for a recovery, but the patient dies, is it right to just say it was God's will for the life to end? Is this how answers to prayers work?
Do you think that when a person dies that's it? Do you think that the family will never see them again? What if the recovery was to come later even years after their death?
I'm open to the afterlife, but that does not address if a person can ask for something that applies to some moment during their human life.
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pmFor a bonus question, using the Bible to answer, what do you think God's will is for everyone?
Well I would hope that it involves more than wanting everyone to be saved from Hell punishment. We are humans that have to go through life from birth to death. I would hope God is willing to do something during a person's humanly lifetime as opposed to only doing something that applies only for an afterlife.
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Re: Prayer and God's will

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2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:57 am I've been told by some Christians that prayer is not about our will being done but God's will.

If true, then what is the point of praying for what you want?
Are these selfish wants or something you want for the good of everyone?
What difference does it make? Are you suggesting that if the prayer is for the good of everyone, God's will can be undone and now your will (for the good of everyone) is what will happen? In other words, if even one prayer is answered with yes and the outcome is not God's original will, then the original plan is now undone. If the prayer just happens to line up with the original plan, then the prayer was useless and a waste of time.

Asking God to do what God is already going to do anyway seems like a waste of energy that could be put into something more useful. Like actually helping other people yourself since you don't know if God is going to do anything to help or not.
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm
Is the above view simply an excuse for unanswered prayers?
Do you think God should answer yes to everything?
Yes. It's right there in the Bible in Jesus's own words:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.”
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm
Like if someone is in the hospital. The family prays for a recovery, but the patient dies, is it right to just say it was God's will for the life to end? Is this how answers to prayers work?
Do you think that when a person dies that's it? Do you think that the family will never see them again? What if the recovery was to come later even years after their death?
Well, according to the Bible, it could very well be it:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
10 When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, “Truly I tell you, in no one[d] in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm For a bonus question, using the Bible to answer, what do you think God's will is for everyone?
First, a counter question. If God's will for everyone is to be 'saved', then why is it not simply done?

If a single person is not 'saved', then God's will has been undone (assuming it was His will to begin with that everyone should be saved).

How about this prayer: "God, please save everyone - even the evil ones. Change their hearts like you did to Pharaoh, except do the reverse. Thanks!"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Now, as for your original question:

We can cherry pick all kinds of stuff from the Bible. I assume you think God's original plan (whatever it was) was good and perfect?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
So, at one point anyway, His will for them was to "blot out from the earth" all of them. He quickly seems to change His mind a little when he sees the Noah fellow though.

In other words, using the Bible, we have no real clue what the mind of this God might be. It seems to change at the whim of the writer of any given book.

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Re: Prayer and God's will

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Post by 2timothy316 »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:22 am
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:57 am I've been told by some Christians that prayer is not about our will being done but God's will.

If true, then what is the point of praying for what you want?
Are these selfish wants or something you want for the good of everyone?
What difference does it make?
Perhaps you should look up past threads on the subject so you that you can get caught up. Many of your claims have already been addressed in other threads. Will accept the Bible as the final authority as the answer to your questions? If not this is not the forum for you. You'll be happier at the C&A forum.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15294&p=337443&hil ... er#p337443
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=37055&p=1005587&hi ... r#p1005587
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Prayer and God's will

Post #7

Post by 2timothy316 »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:22 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm Are these selfish wants or something you want for the good of everyone?
It is selfish in the sense of the person being concerned for his or her well-being. That can be okay in some cases, like if a person is dying of cancer and wants to be cured of it.

Does what the person want in that case matter to God? Is it wrong for the person to be asking God for what he or she wants (i.e. to be cured) as opposed to what God wants (which may be to let the person suffer and/or die)?
Have you ever read the book of Job?
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm Do you think God should answer yes to everything?
I don't think He should.
Me neither. If a person was harmful to the world, why would I want God to answer yes to their prayer for a cure of a terminal illness?
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote:Like if someone is in the hospital. The family prays for a recovery, but the patient dies, is it right to just say it was God's will for the life to end? Is this how answers to prayers work?
Do you think that when a person dies that's it? Do you think that the family will never see them again? What if the recovery was to come later even years after their death?
I'm open to the afterlife, but that does not address if a person can ask for something that applies to some moment during their human life.
There is a bigger issue at hand then just prayer and God's will. All of which has to with who has the right to rule. Genesis the 3rd chapter and the book of Job clue us in on this vital issue. While it is in God's will for a person to live, is the will of the person to serve God or themselves? Satan says people just want to serve themselves and will do whatever it takes and say whatever needs to be said to save their lives. Job was at the center of this debate and so was Jesus Christ. Both suffered and all they had to do to stop the suffering was serve themselves. Jehovah God though had faith that both his Son and His servant Job served Him because they loved Him and think that He deserves to right to rule. So when some says, 'God's will' does that person actually know what that will is?
2timothy316 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 pmFor a bonus question, using the Bible to answer, what do you think God's will is for everyone?
Well I would hope that it involves more than wanting everyone to be saved from Hell punishment. We are humans that have to go through life from birth to death. I would hope God is willing to do something during a person's humanly lifetime as opposed to only doing something that applies only for an afterlife.
First, there is no hell punishment according to Ecc 9:6,10. Still, there is eternal death and no, Jehovah God doesn't want that for anyone. (1 Timothy 2:4) He also wants everyone to follow His laws so that they can benefit themselves. (Isaiah 48:17) So if God answers a smoker's prayer for healing yet the person keeps corrupting his body with cigarettes, what was the point of healing that person? That person apparently doesn't value their life or their lives of other with second-hand smoke and doesn't take the advice of doctors or even the Surgeon General. God's command to not defile one's own flesh certainly means nothing to them as well. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

So, is God concerned with a person now? Yes! But is that person concerned with Jehovah God right now?

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Re: Prayer and God's will

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AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:57 am I've been told by some Christians that prayer is not about our will being done but God's will.

If true, then what is the point of praying for what you want?

Is the above view simply an excuse for unanswered prayers? Like if someone is in the hospital. The family prays for a recovery, but the patient dies, is it right to just say it was God's will for the life to end? Is this how answers to prayers work?
Maybe it is more like submitting to cookie settings given by the service provider? By praying you give permission for God to influence in your life.

For me, prayer is about saying thank you, or sorry, if I have done something not well. But, it can be also for asking something. However, there are some conditions given in the Bible.

When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most assuredly, I tell you, they have received their reward… … In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy…
Matt. 6:5-9

And I think one of the most important things in that is to think, who is the prayed for. Jesus didn’t say for example that people should pray Trinity. If person is pointing the prayers to wrong person, maybe it is not wise to expect any answer.

Maybe, if person goes by all the words given in the Bible about prayer, then he can see how it works. But, if one ignores these, it may be futile to expect anything.

Therefore I tell you, all things whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them. Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father, who is in heaven, may also forgive you your transgressions.
Mark 11:24-25

You lust, and don't have. You kill, covet, and can't obtain. You fight and make war. You don't have, because you don't ask. You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
James 4:2-3

"Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

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