Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
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Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #1https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #2If you are suggesting that they are, in this sub-forum, you'll need something other than scripture to support your claim. Do you have any verifiable evidence that would support the claim they are alive?Wootah wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htmAre Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #3I've not seen any confirmatory data of their existing, but I'll play along...Wootah wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htmAre Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Current medical understanding indicates folks from two thousand years ago are now irrevocably dead, or...
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #4[Replying to Tcg in post #2]
Hi Tcg,
I know that's a rule but I can't find it.
Do you have a link, please?
Mostly I post here so more people can join in and my focus is Christianity and Apologetics as I understand those terms. Generally, I think that the person posting the topic should be allowed to define the parameters of the discussion and if people don't want to join in ... that's fine.
But what is the written rule about the two forums?
Hi Tcg,
I know that's a rule but I can't find it.
Do you have a link, please?
Mostly I post here so more people can join in and my focus is Christianity and Apologetics as I understand those terms. Generally, I think that the person posting the topic should be allowed to define the parameters of the discussion and if people don't want to join in ... that's fine.
But what is the written rule about the two forums?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #5I suspect the rule being referred to is more of a guideline, as from here:
viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
3. For factual claims like the existence of individuals, places, and events, the Bible can be considered as providing evidence, but not necessarily conclusive evidence.
I’m quite happy to put that aside, though – there’s a possibly interesting angle on this, if people will indulge me…
Well, the bible’s got evidence of death for all three:
KJV Genesis 25 v8 wrote:Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
KJV Genesis 35 v29 wrote:And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
I note with interest that Jacob’s ‘ghost’ isn’t mentioned, and that he was embalmed – which might by most modern medical opinions preclude any possibility of life.KJV Genesis 50 v26 wrote:So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.
Based on what the bible says, I would support the position that all three are dead.
To perhaps better stimulate debate though, I would have thought the logical position from a theist’s perspective was that God was equally the god of both the dead and the living. The passage from Luke being commented on here actually comes after a puzzle presented to Jesus about who a wife ‘belonged to’, after successive brothers failed to have any children by her. It concludes:
<bolding mine>Luke 20 v35 wrote:But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
So a ‘worthy’ dead person, according to this passage is equal to an angel. The question then might be asked, “Is an angel ‘alive’?” Certainly not in the same way that you and I are alive, but a possible case might be made:
Premise 1: Worthy people are equal to angels upon death.
Premise 2: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were worthy people.
Premise 3: Angels are alive.
Conclusions: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive.
The first two premises suffer (I think) from being essentially unfalsifiable: there’s only the bible to say so. So Premise 3 seems the best place to concentrate thought.
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #6[Replying to Diagoras in post #5]
Thanks - I did search for it. I'll reply to the rest later.
Thanks - I did search for it. I'll reply to the rest later.
That's what this thread is doing. A lot of religious people on this forum think God is God of the dead.2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true. However, using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #7Moderator Action
Topic moved from "Christianity and Apologetics" to the "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma" subforum.
The guidelines aren't based on the whim of individual posters. They state in part:
"If you disagree with the Guidelines and/or cannot debate without attempting to use the Bible to prove a point or position true, kindly do not debate in this sub-forum. Instead, use Theology, Doctrine and Dogma OR Holy Huddle sub-forums in which the Bible IS regarded as authoritative and can be used as proof of truth."
Guidelines for the C&A subforum:viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
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Moderator actions do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
Topic moved from "Christianity and Apologetics" to the "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma" subforum.
The guidelines aren't based on the whim of individual posters. They state in part:
"If you disagree with the Guidelines and/or cannot debate without attempting to use the Bible to prove a point or position true, kindly do not debate in this sub-forum. Instead, use Theology, Doctrine and Dogma OR Holy Huddle sub-forums in which the Bible IS regarded as authoritative and can be used as proof of truth."
Guidelines for the C&A subforum:viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
______________
Moderator actions do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
Wootah wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:42 am [Replying to Tcg in post #2]
Hi Tcg,
I know that's a rule but I can't find it.
Do you have a link, please?
Mostly I post here so more people can join in and my focus is Christianity and Apologetics as I understand those terms. Generally, I think that the person posting the topic should be allowed to define the parameters of the discussion and if people don't want to join in ... that's fine.
But what is the written rule about the two forums?
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #8[Replying to Diagoras in post #5]
Thus, the implications of the phrase "The Creator is not The Creator of the dead, but of the living, for to The Creator, all are alive.” is better understood in that light.
This would not be the case if The Creators perspective is that no one really dies, and what we Humans think of as 'death/dying' is merely a type of illusion, because it is only the body which actually dies, not the person/spirit which occupied the body.To perhaps better stimulate debate though, I would have thought the logical position from a theist’s perspective was that God was equally the god of both the dead and the living.
Thus, the implications of the phrase "The Creator is not The Creator of the dead, but of the living, for to The Creator, all are alive.” is better understood in that light.
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #9They are asleep in death, waiting to hear the voice of their master to wake them.Wootah wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htmAre Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
"“Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live." - John 5:25
Since this is a promise that will come true they are counted as already being alive. From the point of view of Jehovah and Jesus, like Lazarus, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are asleep. Dead to God is a person that has no chance to awaken from death. This is referred to as the 'second death'. (Rev 20:14).
"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died..." - John 11:11-14.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead
Post #10I believe they are alive.Wootah wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htmAre Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”