Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Post by Wootah »

https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
If you are suggesting that they are, in this sub-forum, you'll need something other than scripture to support your claim. Do you have any verifiable evidence that would support the claim they are alive?


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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
I've not seen any confirmatory data of their existing, but I'll play along...

Current medical understanding indicates folks from two thousand years ago are now irrevocably dead, or...

Nobody ought ever make fun ever again, of how long Moses got him lost in the desert.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #4

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Tcg in post #2]

Hi Tcg,

I know that's a rule but I can't find it.

Do you have a link, please?

Mostly I post here so more people can join in and my focus is Christianity and Apologetics as I understand those terms. Generally, I think that the person posting the topic should be allowed to define the parameters of the discussion and if people don't want to join in ... that's fine.

But what is the written rule about the two forums?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Post by Diagoras »

Wootah wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pmAre Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
I suspect the rule being referred to is more of a guideline, as from here:
viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
3. For factual claims like the existence of individuals, places, and events, the Bible can be considered as providing evidence, but not necessarily conclusive evidence.

I’m quite happy to put that aside, though – there’s a possibly interesting angle on this, if people will indulge me…
Wootah wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?

Well, the bible’s got evidence of death for all three:
KJV Genesis 25 v8 wrote:Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
KJV Genesis 35 v29 wrote:And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
KJV Genesis 50 v26 wrote:So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.
I note with interest that Jacob’s ‘ghost’ isn’t mentioned, and that he was embalmed – which might by most modern medical opinions preclude any possibility of life.

Based on what the bible says, I would support the position that all three are dead.

To perhaps better stimulate debate though, I would have thought the logical position from a theist’s perspective was that God was equally the god of both the dead and the living. The passage from Luke being commented on here actually comes after a puzzle presented to Jesus about who a wife ‘belonged to’, after successive brothers failed to have any children by her. It concludes:
Luke 20 v35 wrote:But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
<bolding mine>

So a ‘worthy’ dead person, according to this passage is equal to an angel. The question then might be asked, “Is an angel ‘alive’?” Certainly not in the same way that you and I are alive, but a possible case might be made:

Premise 1: Worthy people are equal to angels upon death.
Premise 2: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were worthy people.
Premise 3: Angels are alive.
Conclusions: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive.

The first two premises suffer (I think) from being essentially unfalsifiable: there’s only the bible to say so. So Premise 3 seems the best place to concentrate thought.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #6

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Diagoras in post #5]

Thanks - I did search for it. I'll reply to the rest later.
2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true. However, using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate.
That's what this thread is doing. A lot of religious people on this forum think God is God of the dead.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Post by Tcg »

Moderator Action

Topic moved from "Christianity and Apologetics" to the "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma" subforum.

The guidelines aren't based on the whim of individual posters. They state in part:

"If you disagree with the Guidelines and/or cannot debate without attempting to use the Bible to prove a point or position true, kindly do not debate in this sub-forum. Instead, use Theology, Doctrine and Dogma OR Holy Huddle sub-forums in which the Bible IS regarded as authoritative and can be used as proof of truth."

Guidelines for the C&A subforum:viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491



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Wootah wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:42 am [Replying to Tcg in post #2]

Hi Tcg,

I know that's a rule but I can't find it.

Do you have a link, please?

Mostly I post here so more people can join in and my focus is Christianity and Apologetics as I understand those terms. Generally, I think that the person posting the topic should be allowed to define the parameters of the discussion and if people don't want to join in ... that's fine.

But what is the written rule about the two forums?

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #8

Post by William »

[Replying to Diagoras in post #5]
To perhaps better stimulate debate though, I would have thought the logical position from a theist’s perspective was that God was equally the god of both the dead and the living.
This would not be the case if The Creators perspective is that no one really dies, and what we Humans think of as 'death/dying' is merely a type of illusion, because it is only the body which actually dies, not the person/spirit which occupied the body.

Thus, the implications of the phrase "The Creator is not The Creator of the dead, but of the living, for to The Creator, all are alive.” is better understood in that light.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #9

Post by 2timothy316 »

Wootah wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
They are asleep in death, waiting to hear the voice of their master to wake them.
"“Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live." - John 5:25

Since this is a promise that will come true they are counted as already being alive. From the point of view of Jehovah and Jesus, like Lazarus, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are asleep. Dead to God is a person that has no chance to awaken from death. This is referred to as the 'second death'. (Rev 20:14).

"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died..." - John 11:11-14.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #10

Post by 1213 »

Wootah wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:16 pm https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
I believe they are alive.

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