Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

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Post by Wootah »

https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #71

Post by onewithhim »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:38 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #66]

Christ was saying that "today," that is in this 24-hour day time period, I am telling you this_______. He was not saying that he would be in Paradise within that 24-hour time period with the thief.
Yes because when I talk to my family I say, "Today we are having breakfast. Today we are going shopping. Today you are going to school." When I mean in 1000's of years. And they know that I mean no breakfast for you for 1000's of years.

You are reversing the literal emphasis to be the opposite of the emphasis.
No I'm not. I referred you to three scriptures which showed you Jehovah saying, "TODAY I am telling you this....." That is what Jesus was saying. "TODAY I am telling you....you will be with me in Paradise."

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #72

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #70]

Give me an example or two of your own of what you mean please. I can't understand the usage of today you guys imagine is taking place in the Bible.

If I am talking to a man bleeding out on a cross and I say today you are eating ice cream does anyone think he thought anything other than - that day?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #73

Post by Checkpoint »

Wootah wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:16 pm [Replying to Checkpoint in post #70]
Give me an example or two of your own of what you mean please. I can't understand the usage of today you guys imagine is taking place in the Bible.

If I am talking to a man bleeding out on a cross and I say today you are eating ice cream does anyone think he thought anything other than - that day
I do not give non-biblical examples. They are not necessary or relevant.

This one you gave is not a suitable example of how Jesus spoke, or of what he said and why he said it.

All we need are biblical examples, and to especially concentrate on the selected passage, which includes the entire conversation that took place on that specific 'today'.

Í put it this way last time:
However, when used in a past conversation for any reason, we are not free to assume its use has little or no purpose; or to take for granted it was used in a "normal" way .

Rather, we are obliged to consider the whole conversation that took place on that particular "today".

From this a more viable interpretation would, or should, emerge.

What is it you don't understand about the use of 'today', or about what I mean?

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #74

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #73]

You aren't quoting correctly. But whatever, is anyone willing to give an example of today meaning 1000s of years?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #75

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:22 am [Replying to Checkpoint in post #73]

You aren't quoting correctly. But whatever, is anyone willing to give an example of today meaning 1000s of years?
That is not needed. No one has claimed that today means thousands of years. It boils down quite simply to:

“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

versus

“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

The placement of the comma tells the story.


Tcg
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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #76

Post by 2timothy316 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:30 pm
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:38 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #66]

Christ was saying that "today," that is in this 24-hour day time period, I am telling you this_______. He was not saying that he would be in Paradise within that 24-hour time period with the thief.
Yes because when I talk to my family I say, "Today we are having breakfast. Today we are going shopping. Today you are going to school." When I mean in 1000's of years. And they know that I mean no breakfast for you for 1000's of years.

You are reversing the literal emphasis to be the opposite of the emphasis.
No I'm not. I referred you to three scriptures which showed you Jehovah saying, "TODAY I am telling you this....." That is what Jesus was saying. "TODAY I am telling you....you will be with me in Paradise."
This is correct and here is why.

There is no way for the thief to enter paradise on that very day day of his death. The thief said, “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” (Luke 23:42) Yet Jesus didn't get his kingdom on the day of his death. Jesus was dead for 3 days. (Luke 24:6, 7) If he wasn't in his kingdom then where was he? Acts 2:24 says that Jesus was dead until God resurrected him. So there is no way Jesus could have meant that the thief would enter paradise on that very day.

“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise." This where the correct punctuation should be. Noting not the time at when the criminal would enter paradise but noting the time the promise was made. So though one is saying, "Today we are having breakfast. Today we are going shopping." This is fine but, Jesus was saying "today I'm making this promise". There is no time told to the criminal as to when he'd enter paradise.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #77

Post by Wootah »

Tcg wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:32 am
Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:22 am [Replying to Checkpoint in post #73]

You aren't quoting correctly. But whatever, is anyone willing to give an example of today meaning 1000s of years?
That is not needed. No one has claimed that today means thousands of years. It boils down quite simply to:

“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

versus

“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

The placement of the comma tells the story.


Tcg

It's simple deduction. Onewithhim believes that 2000 years ago when Jesus said the today you will be with me in paradise statement has not happened yet. So unless I am still not understanding the use of the word today (and that is why I am asking for more examples to learn) then today can mean 1000s of years. Do you agree that today is being claimed to mean this can occur anytime length in the future?

OK so it's normal for an adult to say to a 5-year-old child, "Today you will drink in this pub with me." and everyone would know that I meant when you are 18 in 13 years time.
or
"Happy birthday son, today I am getting you a present." and not giving a present.

Is that an example? Can anyone help out?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #78

Post by Wootah »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:02 am
onewithhim wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:30 pm
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:38 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #66]

Christ was saying that "today," that is in this 24-hour day time period, I am telling you this_______. He was not saying that he would be in Paradise within that 24-hour time period with the thief.
Yes because when I talk to my family I say, "Today we are having breakfast. Today we are going shopping. Today you are going to school." When I mean in 1000's of years. And they know that I mean no breakfast for you for 1000's of years.

You are reversing the literal emphasis to be the opposite of the emphasis.
No I'm not. I referred you to three scriptures which showed you Jehovah saying, "TODAY I am telling you this....." That is what Jesus was saying. "TODAY I am telling you....you will be with me in Paradise."
This is correct and here is why.

There is no way for the thief to enter paradise on that very day day of his death. The thief said, “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” (Luke 23:42) Yet Jesus didn't get his kingdom on the day of his death. Jesus was dead for 3 days. (Luke 24:6, 7) If he wasn't in his kingdom then where was he? Acts 2:24 says that Jesus was dead until God resurrected him. So there is no way Jesus could have meant that the thief would enter paradise on that very day.

“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise." This where the correct punctuation should be. Noting not the time at when the criminal would enter paradise but noting the time the promise was made. So though one is saying, "Today we are having breakfast. Today we are going shopping." This is fine but, Jesus was saying "today I'm making this promise". There is no time told to the criminal as to when he'd enter paradise.
Jesus was inaugurated as King on that day. Don't you remember the crown (of thorns), the purple robe, the sign above his head that declared him King. This is why Christians love the cross. His Kingdom has been growing ever since for 2021 years. His death was only his human body and 3 days is indicates completeness.

This is a deep theological difference. Are you still waiting for God's kingdom to come? I am a citizen of God's kingdom right now, are you?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #79

Post by tam »

Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:48 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:32 am
Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:22 am [Replying to Checkpoint in post #73]

You aren't quoting correctly. But whatever, is anyone willing to give an example of today meaning 1000s of years?
That is not needed. No one has claimed that today means thousands of years. It boils down quite simply to:

“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

versus

“Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

The placement of the comma tells the story.


Tcg

It's simple deduction. Onewithhim believes that 2000 years ago when Jesus said the today you will be with me in paradise statement has not happened yet. So unless I am still not understanding the use of the word today (and that is why I am asking for more examples to learn) then today can mean 1000s of years. Do you agree that today is being claimed to mean this can occur anytime length in the future?

OK so it's normal for an adult to say to a 5-year-old child, "Today you will drink in this pub with me." and everyone would know that I meant when you are 18 in 13 years time.
or
"Happy birthday son, today I am getting you a present." and not giving a present.

Is that an example? Can anyone help out?

That is not what she (owh) is saying. And tcg is correct, the meaning of the sentence changes, depending upon the placement of the comma. The placement of the comma is what reveals the emphasis of the statement (assuming the scribe knows the correct placement of the comma).

There is another sentence like that in what is written (from the sheep and the goats parable). Matt 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

That version sounds like Christ is sending people into the eternal fire (He is not). But take out that second comma, and the King is simply telling a certain group of people to depart from Him. My Lord showed me that some time back:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

**

All that being said, the author of Hebrews does indeed use the word "today" as meaning more than just that very day: God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” Hebrews 4:7


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

Post #80

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to tam in post #79]

Hebrews 4 - what is rest for you? Death? What is not rest for you? Death? If someone does not enter God's rest then they are in a state of unrest. Or is annihilation rest?
Again, in that passage He says, They will never enter My rest.[f] 6 Since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again, He specifies a certain day—today—speaking through David after such a long time, as previously stated:

Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts.[g]
Today, every day that Jesus doesn't return is still a today we can repent. Which is the current day (so far). But it still means the current day, each day it is read. But the words of David were meant for that day and every day in between then and now.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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