Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[POI]

...they [ Jehovah's Witnesses ] are not too eager to share openly.

Another falshood. Its not unheard for friends and aquaintences to tell Wintesses to STOP sharing their beliefs! Jehovahs Witnesses have got to be some of the most eagre people on earth to talk about their beliefs to others. We offer people weekly indepth topic based discussions, and many millions can testify JWs are willing to sit down with non-witnesses and explain in great detail everything we believe.

Further, few religions can claim to have shared practically their entire library of publications online free of charge for the general public, our website is one of if not the most visited religious website on earth and our houses of worship have always been open for anyone from the street to walk in and scrutinize what we teach and how we worship. To suggest Jehovahs Witnesses are unwilling to engage in in depth bible based exposee of their key teachings and beliefs or {quote} "share too much information openly with 'outsiders" is patently and demonstratively untrue.

Jehovahs Witnesses currently conduct an average of : 7,705,765 regular bible studies Each Month

JW

We seem to be speaking passed one another. I already clarified that JW's proselytize more than anyone else. However, they are not too willing to engage in a truly open dialogue.

[JehovahsWitness]

...can tell me why ex-witnesses are shunned by JW's?

Ex-Witnesses are not shunned, baptised Witnesses may be shunned. Why? I will refer to our official website on this

WHY DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES PRACTICE SHUNNING (DISFELLOWSHIPPING)

If... a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent, he or she will be shunned or disfellowshipped. The Bible clearly states: “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”—1 Corinthians 5:13.

Source: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

So the reasons are as follows

- to protect the congregation from morally dangerous behaviours.
- to hopefully help an unrepentent individual see the gravity of their actions




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING and ... CHILD ABUSE

[POI]

...can tell me why ex-witnesses are shunned by JW's?

Ex-Witnesses are not shunned, baptised Witnesses may be shunned.

Please define an 'ex-witness'? Seems like an ex-witness means they used to be a Jehova's Witness, right? Whether they leave voluntarily, or are kicked out, they are still ex-witnesses, right?

If... a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent, he or she will be shunned or disfellowshipped. The Bible clearly states: “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”—1 Corinthians 5:13.

Source: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

Would this include receiving a blood transfusion?

[POI]

So the reasons are as follows

- to protect the congregation from morally dangerous behaviours.

I read up a little bit and found this: (https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... iscipline/)

"Disfellowshipping takes place only if a member of the congregation unrepentantly engages in gross sin."

Isn't the sin of unbelief a "gross sin"? If one was a believer/follower, but then no longer believes, is this grounds for 'disfellowhip? I would say so, how about you?

If a former believer renounces his/her beliefs, are they shunned? I'm willing to bet there exists former believers, who no longer believe; but keep it a secret. Their entire social and family circle may exist within the JW community.

[JehovahsWitness]

So the reasons are as follows

- to protect the congregation from morally dangerous behaviours.

I read up a little bit and found this: (https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... iscipline/)

"Disfellowshipping takes place only if a member of the congregation unrepentantly engages in gross sin."

Isn't the sin of unbelief a "gross sin"?

No, disbelief (or doubts) are not classified as "gross sin" in Jehovah's Witness terminology.

Would this include receiving a blood transfusion?

A blood transfusion is a personal medical procedure and so nobody but the person's doctor/care team would be privy to such information.

Promoting unscriptural teachings on the other hand is a congregational matter, so if the person insisted on not only disclosing their personal medical history but insisted on discouraging others by publicaly teaching that their decision was not contrary to bible mandates, that would probably become a something subject to ecclesiastical judgement.



JW

[PinSeeker]

It was you, whom brought up the topic of God causing some to be inexorably drawn to Him. Which means, once He does so, it is impossible for the elect to stop or prevent being drawn to Him. Prior to God electing such an individual, they were not inexorably drawn to Him. Hence, it was not the will of the human recipient. The fact that He does not do this for all, seems a little suspect? If your only answer here, is that "God has His reasons", for not electing everyone, then I guess you can just use this answer for any seemingly "unjustifiable" and/or unexplained situation.

Hm. Several things to say here:

Yes, it is impossible to prevent being drawn to Him. God's purposes are unthwartable. If He purposes to do this (draw individuals to him), then yes, He will do it, and it is irresistible. But that does not preclude any individual's "free will." Yet again, God changes the heart of certain individuals from stone to flesh, and then this new heart (nature) drives the individual to make a choice, thereby changing his/her own will from what it once was (in rebellion against God) to what it then is (loving, desiring and working to please God) ~ this is Ezekiel 36). What Paul says to the Philippians is helpful here:

"...it is God who works in (us Christians), both to will and to work (we do the willing and working) for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Hence, it is always the will of the recipient. However, but God's salvation depends first on His action of mercy and compassion, His (what we call) particular grace being first given to the recipient. This is Romans 9. And continuing, as for why He doesn't do this for all, all we can really say about that is, God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion upon whom He has compassion. Why? Well, because as Creator, the potter (God) has all rights over the clay (all of us) and makes out of the same lump some for honorable use (those upon whom He has mercy and compassion, His Elect, who He chooses before the foundation of the world, before any have done anything good or bad) and others for dishonorable use. And why is this? Well, God, from all eternity, desired to show his wrath and to make known his power and has endured with much patience those he has placed in this latter group in order to make known the riches of his glory to those in the former group that He prepared beforehand for glory (those whom He has called not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles). This is Romans 9 almost verbatim. I think I asked you for your take on Romans 9. Regardless, here it is.

1. Again, we already went over the definition of inexorable. --> Impossible to stop or prevent. God elects some, and not others.

Sure. See above.

2. Why would 'universalism' violate God's justice and His glory? Does He say this, or are you saying this?

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). God has set this standard. It has to be met. I am saying this, but only because He does. So... yes.

3. And BTW, I disagree with Paul here; and so do many.

Right, and you are not alone, as you say. But God spoke through Paul, so it's not really Paul you (or anyone else) are disagreeing with. Ah, you will disagree, of course. So be it.

The more I look, the less I see any Christian God there... This must mean the devil is doing his work well with me

Maybe so, but certainly not for me to determine.

Right, rinse/repeat. Right back at you, POI. See above. The desire in the person is to choose the right because of the new heart, the new nature, and make that choice he/she will.

Welp, luckily here, we can turn to science. The heart pumps blood. All cognition comes from the brain alone. The last I checked, (the severely brain damaged / cognitive impaired) cannot engage. To my knowledge, newborns do not really engage either. Does God regenerate these folks in some way, so they may rationally make a conscious choice?

LOL! When the Bible talks about the heart, POI... and I've been very clear about this many times, because the Bible is... it means who the person is at his/her very core, the inner person, his/her nature. My goodness. And a person has a nature from the get-go... which is, well, scientifically true. I mean, we're all "wired" the way we are "wired," right? Yeah, from the get-go.

So, care to redact your prior assertion of 'sin is sin' yet?

Nope.

Okay, let the contradiction continue then...

No contradiction, but yet again, I can understand why you think there is.

Can we then remove the topic of 'repent' off the table, and only focus on belief/faith?

If you want, sure. I would recommend it, if only for your sake.

I was trying to give you an out. But I guess you are not ready Okay, fair enough... We shall continue...

Well, again, I wouldn't recommend it. But yeah, I mean, if you want to keep beating your head against a brick wall, sure, have at it.

You cannot have your cake, and eat it too. You must either redact your prior statement, that 'sin is sin' (or) admit to special pleading for some 'sin' (i.e.) lies, theft, trespassing.

Some sins are certainly more heinous than others, but sin is sin; God hates sin... all sin, regardless exactly what it is. In drawing from the Old Testament in Romans 6, Paul does not say, "the wages of certain sins is death," but rather, "the wages of sin is death."

Another contradictory statement... If sin is sin, then one sin is no more heinous than the next.

LOL! Sin is sin, but the heinousness of certain sins can certainly be lesser or greater than other sins. Heinousness denotes hatefulness and/or evil intent, and certainly, some sins can be more hateful or intentionally evil than others. But still, in the eyes of God, sin is still sin, regardless of heinousness.

If sin is sin, there would be no 'but' There is also no 'lesser/greater' if "sin is sin". And if heinousness refers to intent, then you are just as culpable for your intentional lies, as you are for any other intentional 'sin'.

Sigh. Heinousness obviously refers to the degree to which something ~ in this case a sin ~ is "shockingly cruel and inhumane," as any simple Google search will reveal. So, it may seem lesser or greater in our eyes, but this is irrelevant. God says the wages of sin is death. He does not say the wages for murder (one of the Ten Commandments) is one thing and the wages of lying (another of the Ten Commandments) is another. If one has sinned in any way ~ regardless of what that sin is, regardless of how many times, regardless of heinousness ~ the wages of sin is still death. In that way, sin is sin... there is no "but." The only reason I offered a "but" here was just to separate the wo assertions, the first being that sin is sin and the second regarding heinousness of any particular sin. I will say that you did make a good catch regarding my use of "intent," but I say again that heinousness is a measure of how "shockingly cruel and/or inhumane" any particular sin in our view. In God's economy, sin is still sin, regardless of heinousness.

And you will willfully lie until you die. We've been over this... Hence, you are a heinous human being. So, how much repent, for your heinous and evil acts, is enough? I guess we still need to establish what constitutes true 'repent'? And then we can explore if the repent is a one time occurrence, to catch all passed/present/future 'sins', or if you need to repeat this act daily/other?

I've answered all these questions previously. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but no matter.

Your faith is given to you, and you do not even know why.

LOL! Read Ephesians 2, POI. Oh... but... as you said, you disagree with Paul ~ and, I mean you didn't actually say this but really, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Peter, too, among others. Yes, I understand.

Grace and peace to you.

[POI]

So the reasons are as follows

- to protect the congregation from morally dangerous behaviours.

I read up a little bit and found this: (https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... iscipline/)

"Disfellowshipping takes place only if a member of the congregation unrepentantly engages in gross sin."

Isn't the sin of unbelief a "gross sin"?

No, disbelief (or doubts) are not classified as "gross sin" in Jehovah's Witness terminology.

Would this include receiving a blood transfusion?

A blood transfusion is a personal medical procedure and so nobody but the person's doctor/care team would be privy to such information.

Promoting unscriptural teachings on the other hand is a congregational matter, so if the person insisted on not only disclosing their personal medical history but insisted on discouraging others by publicaly teaching that their decision was not contrary to bible mandates, that would probably become a something subject to ecclesiastical judgement.

Okay. You raise a couple of interesting points...

1. Are you suggesting that it is okay to receive a blood transfusion, as long as you do not tell the elders? And...

2. Wouldn't God still know you are receiving a transfusion anyways? Assuming He knows all, is getting a transfusion considered a 'gross sin' to God?

[JehovahsWitness]

1. Are you suggesting that it is okay to receive a blood transfusion, as long as you do not tell the elders?

No, I'm suggesting that essentially it is nobody's busness but the individual and no Jehovahs Witness would seek to find out something that is medically and legally (and scripturally) personal.

2. Wouldn't God still know you are receiving a transfusion anyways?

Yes He would.

Assuming He knows all, is getting a transfusion considered a 'gross sin' to God?

Yes, I believe it would be. But in a circumstance where only God (and ones doctor) knows, God (not any human) will have to judge the case. There are no secret sins before the Almighty.




JW

What is the biblical significance of BLOOD?
viewtopic.php?p=909886#p909886

Why do Jehovahs Witnesses not accept blood transfusions?
viewtopic.php?p=845393#p845393

Can a Jehovah's Witness be disfellowshipped for accepting a blood transfusion?
viewtopic.php?p=1050066#p1050066

[myth-one.com]

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). God has set this standard. It has to be met.

Actually, sin no longer affects our salvation.

Here is the complete Bible quote:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

While the wages of sin is still death, salvation from death is no longer dependent upon our works to fulfill the law.

Jesus earned everlasting life by living a sinless life. That is His inheritance under the Old Testament Covenant. However, He will not accept His inheritance, but offer it to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

Once believers are born again as immortal spirits at the Second Coming, death no longer applies to them.

So the one requirement for salvation is to accept the gift of God through Jesus Christ, by believing in Him as our Savior.

[PinSeeker]

Assuming He knows all, is getting a transfusion considered a 'gross sin' to God?

Yes, I believe it would be. And God (not any human) will judge that person if unrepentant. There are no secret sins before the Almighty.

Just breaking in for a moment here...

So, Jehovah's Witness, we both know how much God, the Creator and giver of life, in Whom we live and breathe and have our being, values life. And God gave us really smart people we call doctors to develop medicines, and vaccines, and (in this case) procedures like blood transfusions to help preserve life. Plus, the person(s) that donated that blood are actually helping to preserve life, too. Why would you call accepting those gifts a sin, gross or otherwise? I think I know what you would say, but I won't put words in your mouth. So, why?

Grace and peace to you.