Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[POI]

Homosexuality looks to be an objective gauge for the topic of repentance. Why? We look to have many claimed Christians who willingly choose same sex partners for life, and die as practicing homosexuals. One would assume these Christians are also aware what the Bible states about homosexuality. Thus, if a Christian knows homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God, and willfully remains with the same sex partner they love, they are objectively not repenting; by definition.

if you want to focus on one particular sin, that's fine with me. Interesting that you say "claimed Christians" here. One can claim anything, can they not? And closely related to that, if a person who professes to be a Christian but still remains a practicing homosexual, then that would call into question whether he or she is truly repenting, does it not? Which would then call into question whether he or she is truly born again of the Holy Spirit and thus a Christian, right? That person might even truly believe that he or she is a Christian, but the Bible is clear that there will be those who are "false sons," those who think they followed and served Christ but actually never did. These people will be among those to whom Jesus will say, at the Judgment, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

Well, we do not have to focus merely on one sin, but I figured it would complicate things less (for you). Why? In case you are not already aware, God deems homosexuality detestable, just like He probably does for serial murders, serial rapists, serial drug dealers, lying, stealing, trespassing, etc... Thus, in my response here, you can interchange (homosexuality) with the aforementioned underlined topics above.

Lying, theft, and trespassing are all sins, right? Aren't these within God's Commandments as well? I would imagine these are ALL considered transgressions against God, right? I would assume that all such labeled sin is deemed immoral, right? Well, have you truly repented of these sins as well??? Please remember, you and I now agree that true repent includes not doing them anymore, (just like you no longer engage homosexuality before you die). Well, I would argue the BEST you could rebuttal here, is that you can justify applying a lesser sin, to avoid a greater sin. Meaning, you lie to prevent rape. You trespass to prevent a drug deal. Etc....

1. How do you evaluate what sin is worse? Is there a ranking system for more justified verses less justified sin?
2. Are you truly repenting for the sin of lying, if you willfully continue to lie (i.e.) to protect a surprise, or to save a life, or other? Is there such a thing as a 'good' lie? How do you know?

-- Unless you wish to argue that sincere regret or remorse does not include renouncing/discontinuing the regretful willful action before you die?

If we can agree to this point, it would be safe to say, under your definition, that God will not provide any grace to practicing homosexuals. Can we close the books on this one topic, and move to the next? If not, where do you object?

I've been very clear, and so am not sure why you haven't been able to "close the books" on this topic. Yes, merely being remorseful and/or regretful does not constitute repentance, at least not full repentance, which is a turning from the sin, even dying to it, and to God, living unto Him. This is true repentance.

Regarding your comment on God providing grace, in this life, God provides grace to everyone, whether they know it or realize it or not. Everyone who lives receives grace from God in some measure. But in the life to come, for unrepentant, unbelieving sinners, there will be no grace, but only judgment.

Yes, we can close the books and move on. Why it has taken you this long to get here I know not. But so be it.

You were not clear. I asked if a practicing Christian homosexual can go to heaven, and you did not give me a clear answer. Seems as you agree with me here, that they cannot, which moves us along....

Can a practicing Christian (liar, thief, trespasser) go to heaven? If they can, why can't a practicing Christian homosexual?

Moving on to belief/faith. I keep touching on 'wealth', but you seem to have hand-waved this topic away (twice now)?

Well, I have been very clear on it, but you keep going back to your original assertion on it, particularly regarding what you said about Luke 12 (you had said it was Luke 14, but I guess that was a typo) in Posts 33 and 35. Only your doubling down on it have I eventually "waved away."

I disagree. We shall see below

I'll touch on it a third time, for safe measure:

1. How do you know that you do not cherish any one item too much; which might be rendered above your love for God?
2. How do you know you have successfully given away enough of your wealth, to demonstrate your true faith for God?

The same answer for both, really: The Christian should be generous with what he or she has been given (by God, ultimately, because of His grace), knowing that God is his or her Provider and Savior, and trusting in Him to continue in that (and He will) ~ and thus sacrificial in his/her giving, not just of his/her material wealth but of his/her self and all that he/she has. What should be gained from this is an inner peace, among other things, and this is all a work of God by His Holy Spirit, Who is the giver of this peace, which passes understanding. Is there a required proportion or percentage? No, but as Paul says:

• "Each one must give as he (or she) has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written, 'He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.' ” (2 Corinthians 9:7-9)

Yes, there is a thing called a tithe, which is a tenth, but this was a requirement of the Israelites in Old Testament times that, like all other aspects of the Civil and Ceremonial Law were guidelines and "training wheels" for those who lived before Jesus. This is how God instructed His people in their faith, but that is no longer necessary. Since the advent of Jesus, we are not bound to that in New Testament times. We no longer need that "tutor," or "guardian," as Paul calls it in Galatians. The principle it is the same, but not the practice. It's now a matter of the heart, which is what Paul is saying in that 2 Corinthians passage above. And he is repeating what Jesus said. Only the moral law remains in effect today, and it's all a matter of the heart:

• “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-39)

Grace and peace to you.

Okay, now things are even more confusing? First you stated belief/faith and repentance. And now, you are bringing up loving your neighbor as yourself? Is this really the second greatest Commandment? If so, why was it not polarized before? And if it truly is, then how do you know WHEN to apply this second greatest Commandment? Is it everyone you come across, some, or less? And how do you demonstrate your love for them, as yourself exactly?

I will sidebar the topic of wealth, for now, since you seem to be adding more requirements to the pot, as we go?

[POI]

Does a still-born go to heaven or hell?

Either is possible; it depends on whether he or she is a member of God's elect or not, and whether God, by His Spirit, converted his or her heart or not. Age is irrelevant.

Grace and peace to you.

Well, based upon John 3:16, you can only be considered an 'elect', if you believe. And to my knowledge, a still-born has no active beliefs. Thus, this must mean God will not elect them, BECAUSE they do not believe. Why are you so reluctant to make a positive assertion for axiomatic questions?

And if is instead a matter of God actively converting one's heart, then He could just do so for all

[POI]

Most humans will make this decision during their second period of human life on the earth during their judgment.

This includes babies.

They will be resurrected at the second resurrection with every other deceased nonbeliever, grow to maturity, be preached the good news of the gospel and choose everlasting life or everlasting death at that time.

Interesting? Where does it say this exactly?

[myth-one.com]

Most humans will make this decision during their second period of human life on the earth during their judgment.

This includes babies.

They will be resurrected at the second resurrection with every other deceased nonbeliever, grow to maturity, be preached the good news of the gospel and choose everlasting life or everlasting death at that time.

Interesting? Where does it say this exactly?

What Christians have is our name written in the book of life. We are joint heirs with Jesus under the New Testament Covenant to inherit everlasting life:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

So Jesus was resurrected first:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet them in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings. So there are no other human Christians on the earth. At this point, all named in the Book of Life have received their inheritance. The book has been cleared of names. They will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

The only deceased humans remaining to be resurrected are nonbelievers. All deceased nonbelievers (the rest of the dead) are resurrected after the millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . . . (Revelation 20:5)

So after the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves and face judgment:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection! So why are they checking the book again? The book had been cleared.

Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened?

Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. Most were never given a choice on earth prior to their death. They will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second resurrection. From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

Nonbelievers who are now dead will be resurrected and preached the true good news of the gospel! It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Everyone raised in this second resurrection will face the great white throne judgment as all have sinned and are all headed for the second death.

The judgment will hold them responsible for their behavior as humans and some may see that God's plan for them was better than their way of life.

Satan is locked away during this time, the scriptures are unsealed, and these nonbelievers are explained the true good news of the scriptures.

Following this process, the Book of Life is checked again.

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. The scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

Children who die in their innocent years will make their decision after being resurrected as mortals and reaching maturity following the Second Coming of Jesus. This includes stillborn babies!

Many churches teach that innocent children go immediately to heaven upon their death. This is not the case. The true gospel message that every individual chooses his or her personal fate regardless of their age at death must replace the false message that deceased children go immediately to heaven for eternity.

I live 20 miles from the gravesite of five children murdered in their "innocent years" by a depressed Christian mother in order to send them to live with God in Heaven for all eternity, and insure that they would not be condemned to everlasting torment in the lake of fire.

Photo of Yates CHildren's grave

[2ndpillar2]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

Matthew 24:13

Can you please elaborate a bit?

Matthew 24:13 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to POI in post #61]

Sin is sin, regardless how heinous it may or may not be. As Paul says, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Anyone, regardless of his or her particular sin(s) and the depth thereof may respond to that by repenting and believing on Christ and thus receive this gift. This is very, very clear, and this is what I have always said. So, for good measure:

Sin is sin, regardless how heinous it may or may not be. As Paul says, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Anyone, regardless of his or her particular sin(s) and the depth thereof may respond to that by repenting and believing on Christ and thus receive this gift.

Grace and peace to you, POI.

[POI]

Children who die in their innocent years will make their decision after being resurrected as mortals and reaching maturity following the Second Coming of Jesus. This includes stillborn babies!

Many churches teach that innocent children go immediately to heaven upon their death. This is not the case. The true gospel message that every individual chooses his or her personal fate regardless of their age at death must replace the false message that deceased children go immediately to heaven for eternity.

Looks like you have not provided Bible Verse(s) which answer my question? You answered, based upon hour own interpretation, it seems -- (as quoted above)?

Can you please point to the Verse(s) which support your above assertion?

[PinSeeker]

Does a still-born go to heaven or hell?

Either is possible; it depends on whether he or she is a member of God's elect or not, and whether God, by His Spirit, converted his or her heart or not. Age is irrelevant.

Grace and peace to you.

Well, based upon John 3:16, you can only be considered an 'elect', if you believe. And to my knowledge, a still-born has no active beliefs. Thus, this must mean God will not elect them, BECAUSE they do not believe.

"Considered an elect." That's a funny way to put it. Actually, it's the other way around. One can only truly believe if he or she is elect of God. God's election of some to salvation (and others not so much) depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. This is true regardless of age. In Ezekiel 36, God says, "...I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you..." He does not put an age requirement on this. So again, does a still-born go to heaven or hell? Either is possible; it depends on whether he or she is a member of God's elect or not, and whether God, by His Spirit, converted his or her heart or not. Age is irrelevant. That a still-born ~ or even a healthy child up to some certain age ~ is unable to express repentance and belief verbally so that other people may see and know is of no relevance.

Why are you so reluctant to make a positive assertion for axiomatic questions?

Because, POI, your questions are not so axiomatic as you think them to be.

And if is instead a matter of God actively converting one's heart, then He could just do so for all.

Yes, He could, but He could also do it for none... and be perfectly just in doing so. But He does not do it for all, and He does not do it for none. He does it for His Elect, according to His will.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

One can only truly believe if he or she is elect of God.

You have it backwards. God's elect are those who believe in Jesus as their Savior.

Whosoever believeth are those who will be elected.

So belief comes first.

Stillborn babies know nothing about believing in Jesus.

They will have to be taught about Jesus before they can believe and become a member of the elect.

[myth-one.com]

Children who die in their innocent years will make their decision after being resurrected as mortals and reaching maturity following the Second Coming of Jesus. This includes stillborn babies!

Many churches teach that innocent children go immediately to heaven upon their death. This is not the case. The true gospel message that every individual chooses his or her personal fate regardless of their age at death must replace the false message that deceased children go immediately to heaven for eternity.

Looks like you have not provided Bible Verse(s) which answer my question? You answered, based upon hour own interpretation, it seems -- (as quoted above)?

Can you please point to the Verse(s) which support your above assertion?

Absolutely!

Here they are again:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

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For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

=====================================

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

=====================================

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

=====================================

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

=====================================

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . . . (Revelation 20:5)

=====================================

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

=====================================

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

=====================================

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

=====================================

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)