Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[POI]

Okay, it is impossible to avoid being drawn to Hm, if He selects you.

Right. God gets what He wants. His purposes cannot be thwarted.

But that does not preclude any individual's "free will."

Wait, it is not impossible to avoid being drawn to Him, if He selects you? You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are in violation of basic logic. Either it is impossible, or it is not impossible.

You're drawing a false dichotomy.

A true dichotomy is: (A), and not (A)

In this case, (A) = (possible) (i.e.):

It is (possible) to avoid being drawn to Hm, if He selects you.
It is not (possible) to avoid being drawn to Hm, if He selects you.

If God should decide to elect you, is it (possible), or not (possible) to avoid His election? This basically becomes a rhetorical question. You have already answered. You state it is not possible for God's elect to avoid. Hence, all your previous answers, regarding being inexorably drawn to Him, violate basic logic. Faith is given to you. But God opts not to give faith to all? See below....

Why does He only elect some and not others, if all mere humans are sinners?

It's called grace, and He only gives it to some, not all. Others, though He endures with much patience, He gives up to their own foolish passions. I mean, there is such a thing as common grace, which is "common" in that it's given to all, regardless whether they realize it or not, in this life. But then there's also a particular grace, but "particular" in that it is His salvation ~ faith and new life in Christ ~ which is only given to some (His elect).

Okay, now you have introduced the concept of grace. You are stating God recognizes two types of grace:

Common grace = given to all
Particular grace = "it is His salvation ~ faith and new life in Christ ~ which is only given to some (His elect)." ?????

I do not yet see the difference? You look to be offering (even more confusion), as we chug along Why?

You already conceded that faith is inexorably given to you by God. If such faith is given to you, it is not possible to avoid. And yet, God opts to only give this attribute to some. Again, if faith/belief is a requirement for salvation, and God can just give the necessary faith to you, then why not give this faith to all?

You've offered confusion, yes. But not a coherent answer...

To you. I completely understand your position. You sound much like Nicodemus here...

Grace and peace to you.

I trust now you see how you are in violation of basic logic. The prior riddle still stands:

- All mere humans will sin
- Sin is sin - (heinous or not, willful intent will still be made by all)
- True repentance is not required - (as all mere humans will fall short of this standard)
- God still inexorably draws some to Him, and not others???

[PinSeeker]

You already conceded that faith is inexorably given to you by God.

I "conceded" nothing, but rather asserted ~ because Paul does ~ that saving faith is the gift of God. You can attach any adverb you want to it. Saving faith is the gift of God. It is what it is. Paul is very clear in Ephesians 2:8.

If such faith is given to you, it is not possible to avoid.

Well, if such faith is given to you, your heart (the central "you," who you in your core being) is changed, and thus you will not choose... wrongly... ... because you know it is the wrong choice, and will choose... rightly... ... because you know what the right choice really is. It's not confusing.

And yet, God opts to only give this attribute to some.

Right. As Creator (potter, as Paul says in Romans 9) this is His right (over vessels of clay, which we all are, again, as Paul says in Romans 9), so He is just to do so (there is no injustice on His part, again, as Paul says in Romans 9). We know that not all will be saved, so yes. I would say many, because the number of the Elect will be as the stars in the heavens and as the grains of sand on the seashore, but yes, not all. This is His purpose of election.

Again, if faith/belief is a requirement for salvation, and God can just give the necessary faith to you, then why not give this faith to all?

Well, faith results in belief, but what you said about the "requirement for salvation" is passable. To answer your question (yet again), God purposes what He purposes to do, and this is His prerogative and right as Creator. This is what Paul says in Romans 9. It is what it is. He even gets very pointed and specific:

• What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call my people, and her who was not beloved I will call beloved'... And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.' ” (Romans 9:14-28)

It's very clear. It is what it is. And where we finally have to leave it ~ we have no choice but to do so, because we cannot attain to the knowledge of God ~ is where Paul does at the end of Romans 11:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36)

I trust now you see how you are in violation of basic logic.

LOL! Ah, yes, so you missed my point in likening you to Nicodemus. Well, I'm not surprised.

The prior riddle still stands...

Ah, the purveyance and even proliferation of confusion... Certainly, it seems a riddle to some, for sure. But no, it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you, POI.

[myth-one.com]

God purposes what He purposes to do, and this is His prerogative and right as Creator.

Yes, and here is what God "purposes" regarding mankind seeking salvation under the New Testament Covenant:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

The "elect" will be whosoever believeth.

That is God's prerogative in regards to mankind.

From this point on, it is up to each individual as to whether or not they will accept or reject God's offer.

God will honor every individuals choice, without prejudice, and without any advantage given to or taken from anyone.

[POI]

You already conceded that faith is inexorably given to you by God.

I "conceded" nothing, but rather asserted ~ because Paul does ~ that saving faith is the gift of God. You can attach any adverb you want to it. Saving faith is the gift of God. It is what it is. Paul is very clear in Ephesians 2:8.

If such faith is given to you, it is not possible to avoid.

Well, if such faith is given to you, your heart (the central "you," who you in your core being) is changed, and thus you will not choose... wrongly... ... because you know it is the wrong choice, and will choose... rightly... ... because you know what the right choice really is. It's not confusing.

And yet, God opts to only give this attribute to some.

Right. As Creator (potter, as Paul says in Romans 9) this is His right (over vessels of clay, which we all are, again, as Paul says in Romans 9), so He is just to do so (there is no injustice on His part, again, as Paul says in Romans 9). We know that not all will be saved, so yes. I would say many, because the number of the Elect will be as the stars in the heavens and as the grains of sand on the seashore, but yes, not all. This is His purpose of election.

Again, if faith/belief is a requirement for salvation, and God can just give the necessary faith to you, then why not give this faith to all?

Well, faith results in belief, but what you said about the "requirement for salvation" is passable. To answer your question (yet again), God purposes what He purposes to do, and this is His prerogative and right as Creator. This is what Paul says in Romans 9. It is what it is. He even gets very pointed and specific:

• What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call my people, and her who was not beloved I will call beloved'... And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.' ” (Romans 9:14-28)

It's very clear. It is what it is. And where we finally have to leave it ~ we have no choice but to do so, because we cannot attain to the knowledge of God ~ is where Paul does at the end of Romans 11:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36)

I trust now you see how you are in violation of basic logic.

LOL! Ah, yes, so you missed my point in likening you to Nicodemus. Well, I'm not surprised.

The prior riddle still stands...

Ah, the purveyance and even proliferation of confusion... Certainly, it seems a riddle to some, for sure. But no, it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you, POI.

This conversation is now clearly going backwards. You accused me of presenting a false dichotomy. You were wrong. You are in violation of basic logic. It is either possible, or not possible to avoid His election. Until you reconcile/repair/correct your fallacious reasoning, we cannot continue.

Further, God can give faith to anyone (i.e.) "common grace". Why?

1). Sin is sin. All humans sin.
2). God does not care if such sin is heinous, or not.
3). True repent is not achievable.

God elects who will be inexorably drawn to Him. Which means, your belief is given to you. And yet, He randomly elects some, and not others?

If the above (3) criteria are not the considering factors, for the elect, then WHAT IS?

[PinSeeker]

But you have continually insisted that the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment.

No, that is what you have (many times now) foisted upon me.

Please accept my apology!

Is it sincere? Because you have apologized for it several times before, but you continue to do it, which causes me to question your sincerity.

Everlasting punishment, which you would agree with, . . .

Yes, we agree that the punishment is everlasting.

Well that's great, but those who believe in annihilation make this punishment out not to be everlasting but only fleeting.

So you believe that the punishment is conscious. And you believe the punishment is a torment. So to add it all up, you believe the wages of sin is an everlasting conscious torment.

Well, yes, but who do you think is responsible for that torment, myth-one? The torment is not physical and certainly not violent in that sense. No one torments anyone, physically or otherwise, much less God, any person in hell. What they experience there is a torment to them, an internal anguish, which I've said many times. To make my point here, I'll just say that to have to explain the same things over and over and over and over and over (and many more "overs") again is kind of a torment to me. With that said, is anybody actually tormenting me? Well no, of course not. Do you get it?

That makes it impossible for anyone to completely serve the wages for our sins -- as the wages for our sins is never ending.

So when Jesus cried, on the cross, "It is finished," it was... not really finished?

His human mission was finished.

Well, Jesus's work of redemption for God's Elect was fully accomplished. But okay.

Is Jesus now serving our everlasting conscious torment?

If Jesus was sinless ~ which we would certainly agree He was ~ then why would He be having to entire any sort of punishment at all?

Simply because you stated that Jesus paid the wages for our sins, and you claim the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment. Therefore, if Jesus is paying the wages for our sins, wouldn't He now be in everlasting conscious torment?

No, because He's God. He paid the wages of sin on our behalf, and then was resurrected, so that, by God's grace ~ which is His grace also ~ we (Christians, anyway) won't have to.

If not, then "everlasting conscious torment" cannot be the wages for our sins! This is the conflict you must resolve if you define the wages of sin as being everlasting conscious torment.

There is no "conflict." There is no conflict in the scriptures.

There are obvious conflicts in your claims stated above.

I get that you think that, but no.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

This conversation is now clearly going backwards.

Only because you're taking it that way. Or stuck in neutral, at least.

Grace and peace to you.

[POI]

This conversation is now clearly going backwards.

Only because you're taking it that way. Or stuck in neutral, at least.

Grace and peace to you.

Then please tell me why I'm presenting a false dichotomy?

[myth-one.com]

But you have continually insisted that the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment.

No, that is what you have (many times now) foisted upon me.

Please accept my apology!

Is it sincere? Because you have apologized for it several times before, but you continue to do it, which causes me to question your sincerity.

I apologized if I ever foisted any thing upon you.

I have often quoted you as stating that the wages for our sins is "everlasting conscious torment."

Here is an example:

But you have continually insisted that the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment.

No, that is what you have (many times now) foisted upon me. Everlasting punishment, which you would agree with, but punishment is not punishment at all if one is not conscious, and that punishment is a torment, or anguish, to them.

If I correctly quote you as stating that the wages of sin is everlasting conscious torment, how am I foisting that upon you?

[PinSeeker]

I apologized if I ever foisted any thing upon you.

Well thank you. So I can expect that you will never do it again, right? Because if it does, the sincerity meter goes to zero.

I have often quoted you as stating that the wages for our sins is "everlasting conscious torment."

But you couldn't have, because I never said such. I said the everlasting punishment is consciously endured and is a torment to them, but the everlasting punishment itself is not torment in a conscious state. The everlasting punishment (for those not in Christ, unbelievers) is being under God's judgement, which will have been rendered and made final at the Judgment, and permanently removed from the new heaven and new earth. This judgment is what they will have been resurrected to ~ the resurrection of judgment (John 5:29).

If I correctly quote you as stating that the wages of sin is everlasting conscious torment, how am I foisting that upon you?

See above. You did not correctly quote me in any sense. Ergo, the foisting. One's personal experience in punishment is not the punishment itself.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

I have often quoted you as stating that the wages for our sins is "everlasting conscious torment."

But you couldn't have, because I never said such.

Sure you have:

I said the everlasting punishment is consciously endured and is a torment to them,