The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[Miles]

Are you claiming the official Jehovahs Witness teaching is that the 144, 000 are made up exclusively of resurrected males?
Please clarify

Sure. ...

Then you are wrong. The official Jehovahs Witness teaching is NOT that the 144, 000 are made up exclusively of resurrected males. You will never be able to find any statement issued by our Governing Body or on our official website that JWs believe only biological males can go to heaven when they die or that the 144, 000 are made up exclusively of resurrected males. This is not debatable, this is a fact.

Doesn't matter what you think is not debatable because I found the Watchtower, "the official means of disseminating Jehovah's Witness beliefs," published an article in 1996, which was no doubt okayed by the Writing Committee of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, that, in fact, asserts in plain English that the 144,000 was made up of only males.

Have I made myself clear? I Will restate this clearly in case there is any confusion : Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT TEACH that only biological males can go to heaven when they die. Would you like to respond to the statement in blue or do you concede that statement (in blue) is TRUE?

I know you're trying to make your point stronger by repeating it, an informal fallacy sometimes referred to as "proof by repeated assertion," but, of course, I'm not buying it. So wail all you want about the 144,000 not being all males, but your religion's own publication says otherwise. And guess which I hold more credible, Jehovah Witness's own publication or one of its members?


". . . the 144,000 who are sons of God in heaven" says it all. .. Males: 144,000. .. Females: 0.......Sorry




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[JehovahsWitness]

One might say that there's a bit more nuance to that definition.

So? Does this not mean it would be needlessly dogmatic to say it can only correctly be translated in one way ? Is not your point it must ONLY be rendered at Rev 14:4b as "men"?

I'll also draw your attention to the fact that one of the texts in which the ἄνθρωπος/γυνή combination refers to men and women is the Septuagint.

Would "human beings" / mankind not reflect the above? Is you point not that Rev 14:4 should exclude and Word that lovers both men and women?



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT TEACH that only biological males can go to heaven when they die. Would you like to respond to the statement in blue or do you concede that statement (in blue) is TRUE?

Doesn't matter [...]

I notice you did not state that the sentence in blue is FALSE. Below is documented evidence from the official Jehovahs Witness website that prove that the sentence above (in blue) is in fact TRUE.

Those referred to as “my brothers” are spirit-anointed men and women, who will rule with Christ from heaven. (Rom. 8:16, 17) - The Watchtower March 15, 2015 p. 26 par 7 ,

By looking at the following scriptures, you will see the names of a few of the men and women who will rule with Jesus in his Father’s Kingdom.​—Matthew 10:2-4; Mark 15:39-41; John 19:25.- The Watchtower December 1, 2010 p. 30

... God has lovingly drawn a sizable portion of these spiritual heirs with Christ from among women. As to their spiritual standing with God and Christ, there was “neither male nor female” while they were on earth, and in heaven there is no sex principle or distinction. - Watchtower September 15, 1971 p. 570

Women who are counted worthy of God’s approval will share with men the same reward of everlasting life​—many even enjoying life in heaven, where “there is neither male nor female.” (Galatians 3:28). - Watchtower Feb 15th, 2007 p. 14 par. 8

This meant that women could now share with men the wonderful hope of becoming joint heirs with Christ Jesus in the heavenly kingdom. Some women were now in line to become kings and priests and reign with Christ Jesus along with the rest of the 144,000 Kingdom associates. This, however, would not be as women, but as glorious spirit creatures in the heavens. (Rom. 8:16, 17; Rev. 20:6; 14:1) Down to this day, among the remnant of the 144,000, there are faithful women in the New World society who have this grand hope. They have been anointed with the holy spirit as members of the body of Christ, and, as such, have become “sons of God” along with anointed male members of the remnant. - Watchtower Mar 15th, 1964 p. 180 par. 9

From this it follows that the 144,000 holy ones of the Most High God will be kings with Christ for a thousand years without successors. It is said of these: “These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.” (Revelation 14:4) Being bought from among mankind, they were once ordinary men and women just like all the rest of mankind, but from this fact earth’s inhabitants over whom these 144,000 will rule as kings have nothing to fear. God's Kingdom of a thousand years has approached, pub Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society , 1973 Chapter 5 p. 69 par 10

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




According to the Jehovahs Witness belief system are women sometimes called "sons" in the bible?
viewtopic.php?p=1056049#p1056049

[JehovahsWitness]

And not a thing in this Watchtower Online entry for "son" that in any way suggests it refers to anything other than a male.

DO THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE THE EXPRESSON "SON" CAN APPLY TO WOMEN?

Yes; in the Jehovah's Witnesses lexicon, the biblical term "sons of God" is not seen as a reference to biological sex but a metaphoric designation for all God's (spirit adopted) children (whether male or female).

... Down to this day, among the remnant of the 144,000, there are faithful women in the New World society who have this grand hope. They have been anointed with the holy spirit as members of the body of Christ, and, as such, have become “sons of God” along with anointed male members of the remnant. - Watchtower Mar 15th, 1964 p. 180 par. 9

[Difflugia]

So? Does this not mean it would be needlessly dogmatic to say it can only correctly be translated in one way ?

Not if it isn't ambiguous. While the verse is theologically uncomfortable, there's just not the kind of textual ambiguity that you'd like there to be. You have thus far steadfastly argued that anthropoi should be rendered as "humans" or "people" despite contextual clues that it should be translated as "men," meaning "male people." Your reasoning has been that since anthropoi means "people" in other contexts, it's reasonable that it does so in this specific context.

As a reminder:

In verse 4 the correspondant word (anthropos) means "human" as in person (male or female)

In any case, without begging the question, one cannot claim that the verse refers to the 144, 000 as "males".

Thus the "non-elect" amounts to both men and women and humankind /mankind becomes a more logical reading.

There is no contrasting partnership and without begging the question there is no mention of men.

Your consistent argument has been to point to a list of definitions devoid of context, pick the one you like, and claim that disagreement is "begging the question."

Is not your point it must ONLY be rendered at Rev 14:4b as "men"?

Within the context created by 14a, that's the only reasonable construction, yes. As R. H. Charles pointed out, if 14a is an interpolation, then the original context is changed such that "people" is reasonable, but the text as we have it indicates that anthropoi means "male people."

I'll also draw your attention to the fact that one of the texts in which the ἄνθρωπος/γυνή combination refers to men and women is the Septuagint.

Would "human beings" / mankind not reflect the above?

No. "Human beings and women" isn't the same as "men and women," except perhaps to a particularly nasty strain of misogynist.

Is you point not that Rev 14:4 should exclude and Word that lovers both men and women?

I'm saying that ἀνθρώπων contrasts with γυναικῶν in the same verse. In that case, the correct translation for ἀνθρώπων is "men," meaning "male people."

Also remember that though you've shifted focus from 14a to 14b, you still have 14a to contend with:

But when we start from these premises and try to explain οὗτοί εἰσιν οἳ μετὰ γυναικῶν οὐκ ἐμολύνθησαν we are plunged into hopeless difficulties. For, if we take these words literally, it is obvious that they cannot be used of women. Nor indeed can they be applied to women in any intelligible sense, whatever the metaphorical meaning may be that we attach to the words.

Since both halves of the verse are "authoritative," if either indicates male exclusivity, then the 144,000 will all be men.

[onewithhim]

Are you claiming the official Jehovahs Witness teaching is that the 144, 000 are made up exclusively of resurrected males?
Please clarify

Sure. ...

Then you are wrong. The official Jehovahs Witness teaching is NOT that the 144, 000 are made up exclusively of resurrected males. You will never be able to find any statement issued by our Governing Body or on our official website that JWs believe only biological males can go to heaven when they die or that the 144, 000 are made up exclusively of resurrected males. This is not debatable, this is a fact.

Doesn't matter what you think is not debatable because I found the Watchtower, "the official means of disseminating Jehovah's Witness beliefs," published an article in 1996, which was no doubt okayed by the Writing Committee of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, that, in fact, asserts in plain English that the 144,000 was made up of only males.

Have I made myself clear? I Will restate this clearly in case there is any confusion : Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT TEACH that only biological males can go to heaven when they die. Would you like to respond to the statement in blue or do you concede that statement (in blue) is TRUE?

I know you're trying to make your point stronger by repeating it, an informal fallacy sometimes referred to as "proof by repeated assertion," but, of course, I'm not buying it. So wail all you want about the 144,000 not being all males, but your religion's own publication says otherwise. And guess which I hold more credible, Jehovah Witness's own publication or one of its members?


". . . the 144,000 who are sons of God in heaven" says it all. .. Males: 144,000. .. Females: 0.......Sorry

You are wrongly interpreting that statement. JehovahsWitness has explained in great detail why we can be assured that NOT just males are part of the 144,000. But all that goes by the wayside.

.

[Miles]

And not a thing in this Watchtower Online entry for "son" that in any way suggests it refers to anything other than a male.

DO THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE THE EXPRESSON "SON" CAN APPLY TO WOMEN?

Yes; in the Jehovah's Witnesses lexicon, the biblical term "sons of God" is not seen as a reference to biological sex but a metaphoric designation for all God's (spirit adopted) children (whether male or female).

... Down to this day, among the remnant of the 144,000, there are faithful women in the New World society who have this grand hope. They have been anointed with the holy spirit as members of the body of Christ, and, as such, have become “sons of God” along with anointed male members of the remnant. - Watchtower Mar 15th, 1964 p. 180 par. 9

Your points here and in your previous post prove your point. Congratulations on your dedication and perseverance. Good work.



.

[Diogenes]

[...]I am completely unconcerned you are not persuaded and have no intention to change that.

Then why bother to answer?
"The Bible indicates that 144,000 people will be resurrected to heavenly life. (Revelation 7:4) "
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Because being familiar with their publications and organisation of Jehovahs Witnrsses for over 40 years, I wanted to contribute my views on their theology in line with the OP. The Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the number 144,000 in revelation refers to the number of people that go to heaven.

There are currently about 7.5 billion people alive on Earth and about 107 billion who once lived on Earth.
That works out to 1 person going to heaven for every 743,056 people.

There are about 8.7 million JW's. Even if ONLY JW's go to heaven, they've got about of 1.6% chance of making it... about 1 JW in 60
A religion that proclaims few of it's members are going to heaven does not present much appeal.

Or...
You might consider a less literal interpretation. This JW claim makes as much sense as Charles Haze Russell's "End of the Harvest [world]" prediction, that it would end in 1878.

Or was it 1881? 1914? 1918? 1925?

[JehovahsWitness]

religion that proclaims few of it's members are going to heaven does not present much appeal.

I trust those not interested in the teachings of Jehovahs Witnesses will not seek to become join us. If they can live with that, we certainly can.





RELATED POSTS


How can millions be "saved" if only 144,000 individuals go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846597

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000

[Diogenes]

religion that proclaims few of it's members are going to heaven does not present much appeal.

I trust those not interested in the teachings of Jehovahs Witnesses will not seek to become join us. If they can live with that, we certainly can.

So, you don't disagree with my math, that even if only JW's go to Heaven, only 1 in 60 JW's will go to heaven?
What I'm also saying is, "Do you REALLY believe only 144,000 people are going to heaven?"