The 144,000 in JW theology

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The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Wootah »

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #541

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:26 pm
tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:15 pm Peace to you!
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:39 pm
tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:37 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #531]

Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
If the nation of Jews (and people keep 'forgetting' that Jews are only two portions of Israel) had accepted the Messiah, there would have been a lot more than 144 000 of them. So it does not make sense to suggest that the nation lost the unique privilege to become the 144 000 rulers - because there was always going to be far more than 144 000 Jews.

Originally all Israel would have reigned with Christ as kings and priests, yes! Though that is FAR more than 144 000 people. But because Israel (as a nation) rejected Christ (as you said), the invitation opened up also to the Gentiles. But because of Abraham, a remnant of Israel (see previous post), has been reserved BY God to reign with Christ for a thousand years. That remnant is the 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes = 144 000). So while all Israel will be saved, not all Israel will reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Some/many will enter as subjects of the Kingdom.


So yes, the Kingdom was taken and given to a people who would produce its fruit. The invitation began with the Jews, and also the rest of Israel (the Samaritans, descended from the other ten tribes of Israel), and then non-Israelite Gentiles. What matters is faith in Christ (and so also in His Father). But 144 000 has been reserved by God, from physical Israel, on account of Abraham.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
That is not exactly true. Those who will reign per Revelation 20:4, "came to life", as in rose from the dead.


Yes, this is talking about the first resurrection (anyone in Christ who has died will be resurrected at this time). But there are also those who are in Christ who are yet alive when He returns and these ones will be caught up and 'changed' in a twinkling... also reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.

The ones reigning with Christ are also described here at Rev 5:9, 10:

And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and with Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”



This is the same as the Great Crowd (made up of EVERY tribe, including the twelve tribes of Israel, and tongue and people and nation), who are rendering sacred service in the Temple (something that priests do).

The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7), will be marked ("sealed") from "harm", in order to somewhat coast through the great tribulation, "the day of the LORD".


The 144 000 are all sealed before the four winds are released. In other words, the four winds are not released until all of these 144 000 have at least been born and sealed. It doesn't have to be all at once, it can be taking place from two thousand years ago all the way up until the time the four winds are released.

Note how it is written:

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


People ask what is God and Christ waiting for, well, this is one of those things. For each of these ones to at least be born and sealed.


As they are on Mount Zion, per Joel 2:31-32, they will apparently "survive", the "day of the LORD", and therefore cannot come to life, as they will be protected during the "day of the LORD". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will probably be among those who "come to life", and they are neither of Israel/Ephraim, nor of Judah, nor of the 12 tribes of Israel.
As stated, those who reign with Christ in His Kingdom include those who have died (before He returns) as well as those who are yet alive (when He returns). This includes more than just the 144 000.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would not be counted among the 144 000, since, as you have stated, they are not from any of the twelve tribes. They have their own place and honored position.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
According to Revelation 9, those given the seal of God, would be sealed to protect them, keep them from harm, when the locusts were released when the abyss was opened up. This did not happen 1000 years ago, or 2000 years ago.
I'm not sure how that is meant to refute the statement that some who are in Christ (who will reign with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom) will be alive on the earth when He returns.

As for Revelation 9, it states only that the locusts can only harm those who do not have the seal of God (it does not state that everyone ever sealed is alive at this time).

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.



As for the nations, there will be survivors, and the survivors will confess that their fathers taught them nothing but "falsehoods" (Jeremiah 16:19), and the survivors of the nations will come to worship the king in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16).
Sure, there is no problem or conflict here.
As for those alive when the son of man returns, they are not included in Revelation 20:4, and will die as stated in Jeremiah 31:30 but will live to be at least 100 years old unless they were thought to be accursed (Isaiah 65:20).
There is no problem or conflict here either. This (the accounts about someone dying before 100 considered to be cursed) cannot be referring to those who are IN CHRIST - those who are Christian (gentile or Jew), and who will reign as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom for a thousand years, after He returns. Some Christians will die and be resurrected; some will never die (if they are alive when Christ returns).

I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

But once Christ returns, there is no death for them again.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh."

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever."

Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.




Your false apostle Paul's message of "we shall not all sleep" is antithetical to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't understand, what 'cake' are you referring to? (and I have never understood that saying anyway, what is the point of having a cake if you can't also eat it? I digress...)

Paul is not a false prophet, nor one of the twelve apostles, but he is a brother. Regardless of what you think of him though, Christ also taught us that some would be alive when He returned. Look at the parable of the ten virgins. They all go out to meet the Bridegroom (Christ), though only five had enough oil (holy spirit) in their lamps. (Matt 25:1-13)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #542

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #539]

Mount Zion is obviously, according to the scriptures I quoted previously, the one in heaven, now that the Jews were fallen from the special people category, and the immense image of Daniel bears this out. All the kingdoms that have oppressed God's people from Babylon down, are represented in the image. The last kingdom is Rome, with the off-shoot of the Anglo-American world power. In the end-times the world situation is like iron and clay, struggling and chaotic with masses of people rising up and objecting violently. These are the feet of the image, and we are in those times now. Soon the "stone" from the heavenly mountain (which is God's heavenly organization with Christ at the head) will crush all of men's governments and the God of heaven will set up His Kingdom over the earth that will last forever.

We want to make sure that we are on Jehovah's side when this happens.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #543

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:28 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #539]

Mount Zion is obviously, according to the scriptures I quoted previously, the one in heaven, now that the Jews were fallen from the special people category, and the immense image of Daniel bears this out. All the kingdoms that have oppressed God's people from Babylon down, are represented in the image. The last kingdom is Rome, with the off-shoot of the Anglo-American world power. In the end-times the world situation is like iron and clay, struggling and chaotic with masses of people rising up and objecting violently. These are the feet of the image, and we are in those times now. Soon the "stone" from the heavenly mountain (which is God's heavenly organization with Christ at the head) will crush all of men's governments and the God of heaven will set up His Kingdom over the earth that will last forever.

We want to make sure that we are on Jehovah's side when this happens.
Revelation 14:1 is with respect to the "day of the LORD" when those with the "mark of the beast" will drink from the "cup of His anger" (Revelaton14:10). It is not with respect to some dead 144,000 JWs, in whom lies were found on their lips, and who were not "celibates" (Revelation 14:4), living somewhere in "heaven". The king will be David (Ezekiel 37:24), and the citadel of David, Mount Zion, is in Jerusalem, where the king will reign (Zechariah 14:16-17). Apparently, it only takes some mad mothers to crush a government/kingdom, such as was done in Virginia. And all those mothers live on earth. A couple of mad truckers are apparently eventually going to take down Trudeau. The nations are going to be smitten by the "sharp sword", of the "Word of God". (Revelation 19:13-15). This will be done on earth, whereas there are "birds", who will be "filled with their flesh".

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #544

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:14 pm Peace to you,
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:26 pm
tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:15 pm Peace to you!
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:39 pm
tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:37 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #531]

Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
If the nation of Jews (and people keep 'forgetting' that Jews are only two portions of Israel) had accepted the Messiah, there would have been a lot more than 144 000 of them. So it does not make sense to suggest that the nation lost the unique privilege to become the 144 000 rulers - because there was always going to be far more than 144 000 Jews.

Originally all Israel would have reigned with Christ as kings and priests, yes! Though that is FAR more than 144 000 people. But because Israel (as a nation) rejected Christ (as you said), the invitation opened up also to the Gentiles. But because of Abraham, a remnant of Israel (see previous post), has been reserved BY God to reign with Christ for a thousand years. That remnant is the 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes = 144 000). So while all Israel will be saved, not all Israel will reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Some/many will enter as subjects of the Kingdom.


So yes, the Kingdom was taken and given to a people who would produce its fruit. The invitation began with the Jews, and also the rest of Israel (the Samaritans, descended from the other ten tribes of Israel), and then non-Israelite Gentiles. What matters is faith in Christ (and so also in His Father). But 144 000 has been reserved by God, from physical Israel, on account of Abraham.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
That is not exactly true. Those who will reign per Revelation 20:4, "came to life", as in rose from the dead.


Yes, this is talking about the first resurrection (anyone in Christ who has died will be resurrected at this time). But there are also those who are in Christ who are yet alive when He returns and these ones will be caught up and 'changed' in a twinkling... also reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.

The ones reigning with Christ are also described here at Rev 5:9, 10:

And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and with Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”



This is the same as the Great Crowd (made up of EVERY tribe, including the twelve tribes of Israel, and tongue and people and nation), who are rendering sacred service in the Temple (something that priests do).

The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7), will be marked ("sealed") from "harm", in order to somewhat coast through the great tribulation, "the day of the LORD".


The 144 000 are all sealed before the four winds are released. In other words, the four winds are not released until all of these 144 000 have at least been born and sealed. It doesn't have to be all at once, it can be taking place from two thousand years ago all the way up until the time the four winds are released.

Note how it is written:

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


People ask what is God and Christ waiting for, well, this is one of those things. For each of these ones to at least be born and sealed.


As they are on Mount Zion, per Joel 2:31-32, they will apparently "survive", the "day of the LORD", and therefore cannot come to life, as they will be protected during the "day of the LORD". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will probably be among those who "come to life", and they are neither of Israel/Ephraim, nor of Judah, nor of the 12 tribes of Israel.
As stated, those who reign with Christ in His Kingdom include those who have died (before He returns) as well as those who are yet alive (when He returns). This includes more than just the 144 000.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would not be counted among the 144 000, since, as you have stated, they are not from any of the twelve tribes. They have their own place and honored position.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
According to Revelation 9, those given the seal of God, would be sealed to protect them, keep them from harm, when the locusts were released when the abyss was opened up. This did not happen 1000 years ago, or 2000 years ago.
I'm not sure how that is meant to refute the statement that some who are in Christ (who will reign with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom) will be alive on the earth when He returns.

As for Revelation 9, it states only that the locusts can only harm those who do not have the seal of God (it does not state that everyone ever sealed is alive at this time).

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.



As for the nations, there will be survivors, and the survivors will confess that their fathers taught them nothing but "falsehoods" (Jeremiah 16:19), and the survivors of the nations will come to worship the king in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16).
Sure, there is no problem or conflict here.
As for those alive when the son of man returns, they are not included in Revelation 20:4, and will die as stated in Jeremiah 31:30 but will live to be at least 100 years old unless they were thought to be accursed (Isaiah 65:20).
There is no problem or conflict here either. This (the accounts about someone dying before 100 considered to be cursed) cannot be referring to those who are IN CHRIST - those who are Christian (gentile or Jew), and who will reign as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom for a thousand years, after He returns. Some Christians will die and be resurrected; some will never die (if they are alive when Christ returns).

I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

But once Christ returns, there is no death for them again.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh."

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever."

Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.




Your false apostle Paul's message of "we shall not all sleep" is antithetical to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't understand, what 'cake' are you referring to? (and I have never understood that saying anyway, what is the point of having a cake if you can't also eat it? I digress...)

Paul is not a false prophet, nor one of the twelve apostles, but he is a brother. Regardless of what you think of him though, Christ also taught us that some would be alive when He returned. Look at the parable of the ten virgins. They all go out to meet the Bridegroom (Christ), though only five had enough oil (holy spirit) in their lamps. (Matt 25:1-13)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Revelation 9 states that no one was to be killed for 5 months, and to be limited to tormenting them, which includes everyone not sealed, which is defined within a certain set time period.

The sealing of the 12 tribes (Revelation 7:3) is during the period when the "Lamb" shall be their shepherd (Revelation 7:17). That is a specific period of time after the Lord God judges between the sheep and sets up David as their shepherd (Ezekiel 34:20-23 & 37:15-28).

Yeshua gave the parable of the virgins to the Jews/Judah. As for eating a cake, if you eat the whole cake, you no longer have a cake. The parallel, is that you can either believe God, or you can believe Paul. There messages are antithetical. God says, "everyman shall die for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). That has been true to this day, and there are no exceptions. Paul and his listeners are all dead.

The Scriptures say that even some of the nations will survive, but they will have to confess their sin of having listened to their fathers (Jeremiah 16:19) and will have to bow to the king in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16). According to the unknown author of 2 Peter, Paul is his brother, but who was Peter? Peter is the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17, who would not feed, care or tend the flock.

As for believing and not dying, did your great-great grandparents believe, yet die? I think this was better stated elsewhere. As for eating the bread from heaven, the Word of God, which Yeshua ate in the wilderness, it includes Jeremiah 31:30, which states "everyone shall die for their own iniquities". Your words of Paul, the tares seed of the devil (Matthew 13), would be the leaven, which you are not to mix with the bread of life, as shown in the last supper.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #545

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #544]

Yeshua gave the parable of the virgins to the Jews/Judah.
He told the parable to the Jews (Judah and Benjamin) and perhaps there were some Samaritans who heard it as well (even some gentiles, since they came to listen to Him).

But how does that change the meaning?
As for eating a cake, if you eat the whole cake, you no longer have a cake. The parallel, is that you can either believe God, or you can believe Paul. There messages are antithetical. God says, "everyman shall die for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). That has been true to this day, and there are no exceptions. Paul and his listeners are all dead.
But Christ is not dead, and He said that not everyone will die.

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Until Christ returns, yes, everyone dies as you have said. But not AFTER He returns.

(and the passage in Jeremiah is ONLY countering the FALSE saying that sons die for the iniquities of their fathers or fathers for their sons; instead everyone dies for their OWN iniquities)

The Scriptures say that even some of the nations will survive, but they will have to confess their sin of having listened to their fathers (Jeremiah 16:19) and will have to bow to the king in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16). According to the unknown author of 2 Peter, Paul is his brother, but who was Peter? Peter is the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17, who would not feed, care or tend the flock.
I was not claiming that Paul is a brother BECAUSE the author of 2Peter made that claim. I was simply stating that Paul is a brother in Christ. Peter is as well.

Regardless, we are to follow and remain in Christ.
As for believing and not dying, did your great-great grandparents believe, yet die?


Until Christ returns, people will continue to die (whether they are in Him, or not). As He also said:

Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies.


Then He added,

And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.


Such as those who are alive when He returns.
I think this was better stated elsewhere. As for eating the bread from heaven, the Word of God, which Yeshua ate in the wilderness,


Christ IS the Word of God. Christ is ALSO the TRUE manna from heaven.

Those are His words.
it includes Jeremiah 31:30, which states "everyone shall die for their own iniquities".
No, that was to counter the false claim that sons die for their father's sins (or vice versa).

You need to hold all these other words/saying/etc up against Christ. His words must come first. He is the Truth and the Light.

Even in the sheep and the goats parable (these are people of the nations who are alive at the time Christ returns), the sheep are invited into the Kingdom, and granted eternal life. They never died.
Your words of Paul, the tares seed of the devil (Matthew 13), would be the leaven, which you are not to mix with the bread of life, as shown in the last supper.
Check out Luke 12:1 for what leaven actually is. (I misunderstood it in the past, myself... but it is identified at Luke 12:1)


Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #546

Post by onewithhim »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:28 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #539]

Mount Zion is obviously, according to the scriptures I quoted previously, the one in heaven, now that the Jews were fallen from the special people category, and the immense image of Daniel bears this out. All the kingdoms that have oppressed God's people from Babylon down, are represented in the image. The last kingdom is Rome, with the off-shoot of the Anglo-American world power. In the end-times the world situation is like iron and clay, struggling and chaotic with masses of people rising up and objecting violently. These are the feet of the image, and we are in those times now. Soon the "stone" from the heavenly mountain (which is God's heavenly organization with Christ at the head) will crush all of men's governments and the God of heaven will set up His Kingdom over the earth that will last forever.

We want to make sure that we are on Jehovah's side when this happens.
That is the long and the short of it. Can someone explain specifically why the above is wrong? If you don't want to address the whole thing and make a LONG drawn out post, just take one aspect of what I said the immense image means.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #547

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:11 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 pm

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God...
Jesus often refered to the kingdom (which is a heavenly government) as "the kingdom of the heavens" because that is where Jesus and those that rule with him in Gods name will be located (see Rev 20:6). God is a spirit and has no need to live in our physical realm (even if it could contain his magificent power, which it cannot).
1 KINGS 8:27 - Amplified Bible

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built!
So where will God live during the rule of Christ? In heaven where he has always been.




IF GOD NEVER LITERALLY COMES TO LIVE ON EARTH, IN WHAT SENSE DOES HE "DWELL" WITH MANKIND ?

REVELATION 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them - NWT
In the sense that, like with Adam before he sinned, all barriors will be removed and humans will finally live in total harmony with their Creator. God will make his "home" with humans, not in that he will permanently vaccate his heavenly throne but that he will again be in full communion with them.




JW


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HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
The "LORD" will "save" "Israel"/Ephraim from "all your uncleanliness" (Ez 36:26-28), and "take you from the nations", and "I will give you a new heart and spirit", and join you with Judah (Ez 37:21-28), and "they shall live on the land I gave to Jacob", and "My servant David will be king over them", and "My sanctuary is in their midst forever" (Ez 37:28). Apparently the LORD appreciates a good barbeque steak and a cold beer, and needs a holy dwelling to reside in to appreciate it. Apparently, you will find him in Jerusalem, in the midst of the people of Israel. As for the "nations"/Gentiles, they will be ruled with a rod of iron (Rev 19:15), at least those who have made it through the tribulation. Many will be sold into slavery (Joel 3:8), or in the case of some, volunteer to be servants of Jacob/Israel (Isaiah 14:1-2)

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onewithhim
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #548

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:23 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:11 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 pm

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God...
Jesus often refered to the kingdom (which is a heavenly government) as "the kingdom of the heavens" because that is where Jesus and those that rule with him in Gods name will be located (see Rev 20:6). God is a spirit and has no need to live in our physical realm (even if it could contain his magificent power, which it cannot).
1 KINGS 8:27 - Amplified Bible

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built!
So where will God live during the rule of Christ? In heaven where he has always been.




IF GOD NEVER LITERALLY COMES TO LIVE ON EARTH, IN WHAT SENSE DOES HE "DWELL" WITH MANKIND ?

REVELATION 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them - NWT
In the sense that, like with Adam before he sinned, all barriors will be removed and humans will finally live in total harmony with their Creator. God will make his "home" with humans, not in that he will permanently vaccate his heavenly throne but that he will again be in full communion with them.




JW


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In what sense does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven ?
viewtopic.php?p=1061832#p1061832

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viewtopic.php?p=1060794#p1060794

Why can we be sure Jesus will never be sent to live on the earth again?
viewtopic.php?p=1063010#p1063010
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
The "LORD" will "save" "Israel"/Ephraim from "all your uncleanliness" (Ez 36:26-28), and "take you from the nations", and "I will give you a new heart and spirit", and join you with Judah (Ez 37:21-28), and "they shall live on the land I gave to Jacob", and "My servant David will be king over them", and "My sanctuary is in their midst forever" (Ez 37:28). Apparently the LORD appreciates a good barbeque steak and a cold beer, and needs a holy dwelling to reside in to appreciate it. Apparently, you will find him in Jerusalem, in the midst of the people of Israel. As for the "nations"/Gentiles, they will be ruled with a rod of iron (Rev 19:15), at least those who have made it through the tribulation. Many will be sold into slavery (Joel 3:8), or in the case of some, volunteer to be servants of Jacob/Israel (Isaiah 14:1-2)
After Israel denied and rejected the Messiah, the church of God was transferred to the Christian congregation. Therefore all that was written about physical Israel can now be understood to be referring to the spiritual Israel of God. Jesus remarked on this, as did Peter and Paul.

(Jesus) Matthew 21:43: "...The Kingdom of God will be taken from you [physical Israel] and be given to a nation producing its fruits."

(Paul) Galatians 3:26-29: "You [Christians] are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

(Peter) I Peter 2:9,10: "You [Christians] are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people."

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #549

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:00 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:23 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:11 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 pm

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God...
Jesus often refered to the kingdom (which is a heavenly government) as "the kingdom of the heavens" because that is where Jesus and those that rule with him in Gods name will be located (see Rev 20:6). God is a spirit and has no need to live in our physical realm (even if it could contain his magificent power, which it cannot).
1 KINGS 8:27 - Amplified Bible

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built!
So where will God live during the rule of Christ? In heaven where he has always been.




IF GOD NEVER LITERALLY COMES TO LIVE ON EARTH, IN WHAT SENSE DOES HE "DWELL" WITH MANKIND ?

REVELATION 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them - NWT
In the sense that, like with Adam before he sinned, all barriors will be removed and humans will finally live in total harmony with their Creator. God will make his "home" with humans, not in that he will permanently vaccate his heavenly throne but that he will again be in full communion with them.




JW


RELATED POSTS


Do the 24 elders of Revelation rule ON or OVER the earth?
viewtopic.php?p=1023412#p1023412

What is the New Jerusalem spoken of in the book of Revelation?
viewtopic.php?p=1021283#p1021283

In what sense does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven ?
viewtopic.php?p=1061832#p1061832

In what sense does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven ?
viewtopic.php?p=1061832#p1061832

Will Jesus travel back and forth between heaven and earth during the millenium?
viewtopic.php?p=1051377#p1051377

In what sense will God "dwell" (tent) with humans?
viewtopic.php?p=1060794#p1060794

Why can we be sure Jesus will never be sent to live on the earth again?
viewtopic.php?p=1063010#p1063010
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
The "LORD" will "save" "Israel"/Ephraim from "all your uncleanliness" (Ez 36:26-28), and "take you from the nations", and "I will give you a new heart and spirit", and join you with Judah (Ez 37:21-28), and "they shall live on the land I gave to Jacob", and "My servant David will be king over them", and "My sanctuary is in their midst forever" (Ez 37:28). Apparently the LORD appreciates a good barbeque steak and a cold beer, and needs a holy dwelling to reside in to appreciate it. Apparently, you will find him in Jerusalem, in the midst of the people of Israel. As for the "nations"/Gentiles, they will be ruled with a rod of iron (Rev 19:15), at least those who have made it through the tribulation. Many will be sold into slavery (Joel 3:8), or in the case of some, volunteer to be servants of Jacob/Israel (Isaiah 14:1-2)
After Israel denied and rejected the Messiah, the church of God was transferred to the Christian congregation. Therefore all that was written about physical Israel can now be understood to be referring to the spiritual Israel of God. Jesus remarked on this, as did Peter and Paul.

(Jesus) Matthew 21:43: "...The Kingdom of God will be taken from you [physical Israel] and be given to a nation producing its fruits."

(Paul) Galatians 3:26-29: "You [Christians] are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

(Peter) I Peter 2:9,10: "You [Christians] are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people."
Ephraim/Israel and Judah have been under judgment until they "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5 & 6). It will be "after two days" (2000 years) when they "acknowledge their guilt" when "He will revive us". As for the Gentile church, the "adulteress", who was bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver for "many days", her "many days" are coming to and end, and "the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God, and David their king....in the last days". (Hosea 3) As for Peter 2:9, according to the false prophet Paul, per Galatians 2:7, Peter taught the circumcised/Jews, not the Gentiles. As for Paul, his message was of the false gospel of the cross/grace, which is one of lawlessness, such as nailing the law onto the cross. This lawless message, the message of the devil, the tare seed, was put under the protection of Yeshua, until the "end of the age", when the tares will be gathered up and tossed into the fire. (Matthew 13:27-30 & 39-42). As for the fruits of the Gentile church, they have not been good, therefore they will most likely be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3)

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onewithhim
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #550

Post by onewithhim »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:00 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:23 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:11 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 pm

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God...
Jesus often refered to the kingdom (which is a heavenly government) as "the kingdom of the heavens" because that is where Jesus and those that rule with him in Gods name will be located (see Rev 20:6). God is a spirit and has no need to live in our physical realm (even if it could contain his magificent power, which it cannot).
1 KINGS 8:27 - Amplified Bible

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built!
So where will God live during the rule of Christ? In heaven where he has always been.




IF GOD NEVER LITERALLY COMES TO LIVE ON EARTH, IN WHAT SENSE DOES HE "DWELL" WITH MANKIND ?

REVELATION 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them - NWT
In the sense that, like with Adam before he sinned, all barriors will be removed and humans will finally live in total harmony with their Creator. God will make his "home" with humans, not in that he will permanently vaccate his heavenly throne but that he will again be in full communion with them.




JW


RELATED POSTS


Do the 24 elders of Revelation rule ON or OVER the earth?
viewtopic.php?p=1023412#p1023412

What is the New Jerusalem spoken of in the book of Revelation?
viewtopic.php?p=1021283#p1021283

In what sense does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven ?
viewtopic.php?p=1061832#p1061832

In what sense does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven ?
viewtopic.php?p=1061832#p1061832

Will Jesus travel back and forth between heaven and earth during the millenium?
viewtopic.php?p=1051377#p1051377

In what sense will God "dwell" (tent) with humans?
viewtopic.php?p=1060794#p1060794

Why can we be sure Jesus will never be sent to live on the earth again?
viewtopic.php?p=1063010#p1063010
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
The "LORD" will "save" "Israel"/Ephraim from "all your uncleanliness" (Ez 36:26-28), and "take you from the nations", and "I will give you a new heart and spirit", and join you with Judah (Ez 37:21-28), and "they shall live on the land I gave to Jacob", and "My servant David will be king over them", and "My sanctuary is in their midst forever" (Ez 37:28). Apparently the LORD appreciates a good barbeque steak and a cold beer, and needs a holy dwelling to reside in to appreciate it. Apparently, you will find him in Jerusalem, in the midst of the people of Israel. As for the "nations"/Gentiles, they will be ruled with a rod of iron (Rev 19:15), at least those who have made it through the tribulation. Many will be sold into slavery (Joel 3:8), or in the case of some, volunteer to be servants of Jacob/Israel (Isaiah 14:1-2)
After Israel denied and rejected the Messiah, the church of God was transferred to the Christian congregation. Therefore all that was written about physical Israel can now be understood to be referring to the spiritual Israel of God. Jesus remarked on this, as did Peter and Paul.

(Jesus) Matthew 21:43: "...The Kingdom of God will be taken from you [physical Israel] and be given to a nation producing its fruits."

(Paul) Galatians 3:26-29: "You [Christians] are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

(Peter) I Peter 2:9,10: "You [Christians] are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people."

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