The 144,000 in JW theology

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The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Wootah »

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #531

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DID GOD REJECT THE JEWS?
MATTHEW 21:43
The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits
Did Paul not say that God did not reject his people?

An examination of the context of Pauls words make it clear that he was speaking about whether God had rejected all the individuals in the nation. Also, note what Paul actually said "God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized" meaning in Jeovah did not reject or abandon his original agreement under the Mosaic law covenant that brought the descendants of Abraham into a special relationship with Him ( see Ex 19:15).



REJECTED OR ACCEPTED AS WHAT?


Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.


CONCLUSION God did indeed reject the Jews as a group, meaning they lost the privilege of continuing as a special nation under the new Christian arrangement. Paul noted however that individual Jews that showed faith would be included in fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #532

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JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:59 pm DID GOD REJECT THE JEWS?
MATTHEW 21:43
The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits
Did Paul not say that God did not reject his people?

An examination of the context of Pauls words make it clear that he was speaking about whether God had rejected all the individuals in the nation. Also, note what Paul actually said "God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized" meaning in Jeovah did not reject or abandon his original agreement under the Mosaic law covenant that brought the descendants of Abraham into a special relationship with Him ( see Ex 19:15).
REJECTED OR ACCEPTED AS WHAT?
Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
CONCLUSION God did indeed reject the Jews as a group, meaning they lost the privilege of continuing as a special nation under the new Christian arrangement. Paul noted however that individual Jews that showed faith would be included in fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.
Matthew 21:43 was directed at the "chief priests and the Pharisees" (Matthew 21:45), of which Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees according to Paul, and Caesar was his Lord, upon whom Paul called in his hour of distress. And what happens to anyone not producing good fruit? And what is the timeline before Judah and Ephraim/Israel confess their sins, "acknowledge their guilt", and are healed (Hosea 5:15-6:2)? And what happens to the "adulteress", the Gentile church, bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver after "many days" (Hosea 3)?

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #533

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:21 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:38 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #524]

Mount Zion may exist on Earth, but it's the heavenly Mount Zion that is significant now, not the earthly one. In John's vision of heaven he sees "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with him the 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1) This is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments.
Keep in mind that the lamb, as the son of man, returns "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), in which the nations were crushed. And the "one hundred and forty-four thousand" had not been defiled by women (Revelation 14:4), nor was any lie found in their mouth, which pretty much eliminates your 144,000 JWs. It is not the "mountain" that crushes the kingdoms, it is the stone,
If you'll examine the verse, it says that the "stone" CAME FROM the mountain. (Daniel 2:45) The mountain is Jehovah's heavenly organization, Mount Zion, as it shows, for example, at Revelation 14:1.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #534

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #531]

Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
If the nation of Jews (and people keep 'forgetting' that Jews are only two portions of Israel) had accepted the Messiah, there would have been a lot more than 144 000 of them. So it does not make sense to suggest that the nation lost the unique privilege to become the 144 000 rulers - because there was always going to be far more than 144 000 Jews.

Originally all Israel would have reigned with Christ as kings and priests, yes! Though that is FAR more than 144 000 people. But because Israel (as a nation) rejected Christ (as you said), the invitation opened up also to the Gentiles. But because of Abraham, a remnant of Israel (see previous post), has been reserved BY God to reign with Christ for a thousand years. That remnant is the 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes = 144 000). So while all Israel will be saved, not all Israel will reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Some/many will enter as subjects of the Kingdom.


So yes, the Kingdom was taken and given to a people who would produce its fruit. The invitation began with the Jews, and also the rest of Israel (the Samaritans, descended from the other ten tribes of Israel), and then non-Israelite Gentiles. What matters is faith in Christ (and so also in His Father). But 144 000 has been reserved by God, from physical Israel, on account of Abraham.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #535

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:27 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:21 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:38 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #524]

Mount Zion may exist on Earth, but it's the heavenly Mount Zion that is significant now, not the earthly one. In John's vision of heaven he sees "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with him the 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1) This is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments.
Keep in mind that the lamb, as the son of man, returns "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), in which the nations were crushed. And the "one hundred and forty-four thousand" had not been defiled by women (Revelation 14:4), nor was any lie found in their mouth, which pretty much eliminates your 144,000 JWs. It is not the "mountain" that crushes the kingdoms, it is the stone,
If you'll examine the verse, it says that the "stone" CAME FROM the mountain. (Daniel 2:45) The mountain is Jehovah's heavenly organization, Mount Zion, as it shows, for example, at Revelation 14:1.
I repeat, it was the "stone", the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13), which "crushed the iron". Not the mountain. The mountain, the church of God, the tabernacle of God, in which only those who keep the Commandments ("Words"), and keep the Sabbath, can worship (Isaiah 56:6). That would apparently preclude the JWs.

Isaiah 56:5 I will give them, in My house and within My walls, a memorial and a name better than that of sons and daughters. I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD to minister to Him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be His servants— all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant— 7I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”…

King James Bible Daniel 2:45
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #536

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:37 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #531]

Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
If the nation of Jews (and people keep 'forgetting' that Jews are only two portions of Israel) had accepted the Messiah, there would have been a lot more than 144 000 of them. So it does not make sense to suggest that the nation lost the unique privilege to become the 144 000 rulers - because there was always going to be far more than 144 000 Jews.

Originally all Israel would have reigned with Christ as kings and priests, yes! Though that is FAR more than 144 000 people. But because Israel (as a nation) rejected Christ (as you said), the invitation opened up also to the Gentiles. But because of Abraham, a remnant of Israel (see previous post), has been reserved BY God to reign with Christ for a thousand years. That remnant is the 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes = 144 000). So while all Israel will be saved, not all Israel will reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Some/many will enter as subjects of the Kingdom.


So yes, the Kingdom was taken and given to a people who would produce its fruit. The invitation began with the Jews, and also the rest of Israel (the Samaritans, descended from the other ten tribes of Israel), and then non-Israelite Gentiles. What matters is faith in Christ (and so also in His Father). But 144 000 has been reserved by God, from physical Israel, on account of Abraham.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
That is not exactly true. Those who will reign per Revelation 20:4, "came to life", as in rose from the dead. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7), will be marked ("sealed") from "harm", in order to somewhat coast through the great tribulation, "the day of the LORD". As they are on Mount Zion, per Joel 2:31-32, they will apparently "survive", the "day of the LORD", and therefore cannot come to life, as they will be protected during the "day of the LORD". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will probably be among those who "come to life", and they are neither of Israel/Ephraim, nor of Judah, nor of the 12 tribes of Israel.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #537

Post by tam »

Peace to you!
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:39 pm
tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:37 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #531]

Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
If the nation of Jews (and people keep 'forgetting' that Jews are only two portions of Israel) had accepted the Messiah, there would have been a lot more than 144 000 of them. So it does not make sense to suggest that the nation lost the unique privilege to become the 144 000 rulers - because there was always going to be far more than 144 000 Jews.

Originally all Israel would have reigned with Christ as kings and priests, yes! Though that is FAR more than 144 000 people. But because Israel (as a nation) rejected Christ (as you said), the invitation opened up also to the Gentiles. But because of Abraham, a remnant of Israel (see previous post), has been reserved BY God to reign with Christ for a thousand years. That remnant is the 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes = 144 000). So while all Israel will be saved, not all Israel will reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Some/many will enter as subjects of the Kingdom.


So yes, the Kingdom was taken and given to a people who would produce its fruit. The invitation began with the Jews, and also the rest of Israel (the Samaritans, descended from the other ten tribes of Israel), and then non-Israelite Gentiles. What matters is faith in Christ (and so also in His Father). But 144 000 has been reserved by God, from physical Israel, on account of Abraham.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
That is not exactly true. Those who will reign per Revelation 20:4, "came to life", as in rose from the dead.


Yes, this is talking about the first resurrection (anyone in Christ who has died will be resurrected at this time). But there are also those who are in Christ who are yet alive when He returns and these ones will be caught up and 'changed' in a twinkling... also reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.

The ones reigning with Christ are also described here at Rev 5:9, 10:

And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and with Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”



This is the same as the Great Crowd (made up of EVERY tribe, including the twelve tribes of Israel, and tongue and people and nation), who are rendering sacred service in the Temple (something that priests do).

The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7), will be marked ("sealed") from "harm", in order to somewhat coast through the great tribulation, "the day of the LORD".


The 144 000 are all sealed before the four winds are released. In other words, the four winds are not released until all of these 144 000 have at least been born and sealed. It doesn't have to be all at once, it can be taking place from two thousand years ago all the way up until the time the four winds are released.

Note how it is written:

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


People ask what is God and Christ waiting for, well, this is one of those things. For each of these ones to at least be born and sealed.


As they are on Mount Zion, per Joel 2:31-32, they will apparently "survive", the "day of the LORD", and therefore cannot come to life, as they will be protected during the "day of the LORD". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will probably be among those who "come to life", and they are neither of Israel/Ephraim, nor of Judah, nor of the 12 tribes of Israel.
As stated, those who reign with Christ in His Kingdom include those who have died (before He returns) as well as those who are yet alive (when He returns). This includes more than just the 144 000.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would not be counted among the 144 000, since, as you have stated, they are not from any of the twelve tribes. They have their own place and honored position.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #538

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:26 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:27 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:21 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:38 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #524]

Mount Zion may exist on Earth, but it's the heavenly Mount Zion that is significant now, not the earthly one. In John's vision of heaven he sees "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with him the 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1) This is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments.
Keep in mind that the lamb, as the son of man, returns "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), in which the nations were crushed. And the "one hundred and forty-four thousand" had not been defiled by women (Revelation 14:4), nor was any lie found in their mouth, which pretty much eliminates your 144,000 JWs. It is not the "mountain" that crushes the kingdoms, it is the stone,
If you'll examine the verse, it says that the "stone" CAME FROM the mountain. (Daniel 2:45) The mountain is Jehovah's heavenly organization, Mount Zion, as it shows, for example, at Revelation 14:1.
I repeat, it was the "stone", the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13), which "crushed the iron". Not the mountain.
Please pay closer attention to what I post. I said "the stone CAME FROM the mountain, not that the mountain crushed the kingdoms." I've repeated that twice now.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #539

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:36 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:26 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:27 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:21 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:38 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #524]

Mount Zion may exist on Earth, but it's the heavenly Mount Zion that is significant now, not the earthly one. In John's vision of heaven he sees "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with him the 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1) This is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments.
Keep in mind that the lamb, as the son of man, returns "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), in which the nations were crushed. And the "one hundred and forty-four thousand" had not been defiled by women (Revelation 14:4), nor was any lie found in their mouth, which pretty much eliminates your 144,000 JWs. It is not the "mountain" that crushes the kingdoms, it is the stone,
If you'll examine the verse, it says that the "stone" CAME FROM the mountain. (Daniel 2:45) The mountain is Jehovah's heavenly organization, Mount Zion, as it shows, for example, at Revelation 14:1.
I repeat, it was the "stone", the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13), which "crushed the iron". Not the mountain.
Please pay closer attention to what I post. I said "the stone CAME FROM the mountain, not that the mountain crushed the kingdoms." I've repeated that twice now.
Your first post misrepresented Revelation 14:1, by saying: "this is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments." It said the lamb was standing on Mount Zion. The "stone" (Daniel 2:45), the "corner stone", a "tested stone" (Isaiah 28:16), is the cornerstone of the tabernacle of God, His church, Mount Zion, and it is a tested stone, and at the "end of the age" the tabernacle of God, God's "sanctuary", will be the combined "stick" of "Ephraim" and "Judah", on the land given to Jacob, under the leadership of king David (Ezekiel 37:15-28). Your Protestant founding of what you think the "rock" is (Matthew 16:17), has led you down the rabbit hole. The Catholic understanding is just as unreliable. Maybe you can better explain what the "tested stone" is, and what building is it a "corner stone" of. A "tested stone" is one that has been tested. The marked 144,000, will not be in heaven, but will be marked so as to be protected on earth during the great tribulation (Revelation 7), "the day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), the day of judgment (Joel 3:2).

American Standard Version Daniel 2:45
Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #540

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:15 pm Peace to you!
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:39 pm
tam wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:37 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #531]

Under the Mosaic law * all * the decendants of Abraham automatically (by virtue of their birth) became God's special nation. Upon termination of that convenant, the opportunity or invitation went out to enter a new convenant. Because of his promise to Abraham this invitation should rightly have been exclusively to the Jews. It was at this point, because of their rejecting the Messiah, the nation as a whole lost the unique privilege, to become the 144, 000 rulers in the Messianic kingdom. Individuals however, could properly respond to the divine invitation.
If the nation of Jews (and people keep 'forgetting' that Jews are only two portions of Israel) had accepted the Messiah, there would have been a lot more than 144 000 of them. So it does not make sense to suggest that the nation lost the unique privilege to become the 144 000 rulers - because there was always going to be far more than 144 000 Jews.

Originally all Israel would have reigned with Christ as kings and priests, yes! Though that is FAR more than 144 000 people. But because Israel (as a nation) rejected Christ (as you said), the invitation opened up also to the Gentiles. But because of Abraham, a remnant of Israel (see previous post), has been reserved BY God to reign with Christ for a thousand years. That remnant is the 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes = 144 000). So while all Israel will be saved, not all Israel will reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom. Some/many will enter as subjects of the Kingdom.


So yes, the Kingdom was taken and given to a people who would produce its fruit. The invitation began with the Jews, and also the rest of Israel (the Samaritans, descended from the other ten tribes of Israel), and then non-Israelite Gentiles. What matters is faith in Christ (and so also in His Father). But 144 000 has been reserved by God, from physical Israel, on account of Abraham.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
That is not exactly true. Those who will reign per Revelation 20:4, "came to life", as in rose from the dead.


Yes, this is talking about the first resurrection (anyone in Christ who has died will be resurrected at this time). But there are also those who are in Christ who are yet alive when He returns and these ones will be caught up and 'changed' in a twinkling... also reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.

The ones reigning with Christ are also described here at Rev 5:9, 10:

And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and with Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”



This is the same as the Great Crowd (made up of EVERY tribe, including the twelve tribes of Israel, and tongue and people and nation), who are rendering sacred service in the Temple (something that priests do).

The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7), will be marked ("sealed") from "harm", in order to somewhat coast through the great tribulation, "the day of the LORD".


The 144 000 are all sealed before the four winds are released. In other words, the four winds are not released until all of these 144 000 have at least been born and sealed. It doesn't have to be all at once, it can be taking place from two thousand years ago all the way up until the time the four winds are released.

Note how it is written:

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


People ask what is God and Christ waiting for, well, this is one of those things. For each of these ones to at least be born and sealed.


As they are on Mount Zion, per Joel 2:31-32, they will apparently "survive", the "day of the LORD", and therefore cannot come to life, as they will be protected during the "day of the LORD". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will probably be among those who "come to life", and they are neither of Israel/Ephraim, nor of Judah, nor of the 12 tribes of Israel.
As stated, those who reign with Christ in His Kingdom include those who have died (before He returns) as well as those who are yet alive (when He returns). This includes more than just the 144 000.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would not be counted among the 144 000, since, as you have stated, they are not from any of the twelve tribes. They have their own place and honored position.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
According to Revelation 9, those given the seal of God, would be sealed to protect them, keep them from harm, when the locusts were released when the abyss was opened up. This did not happen 1000 years ago, or 2000 years ago.

As for the nations, there will be survivors, and the survivors will confess that their fathers taught them nothing but "falsehoods" (Jeremiah 16:19), and the survivors of the nations will come to worship the king in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16). As for those alive when the son of man returns, they are not included in Revelation 20:4, and will die as stated in Jeremiah 31:30 but will live to be at least 100 years old unless they were thought to be accursed (Isaiah 65:20). Your false apostle Paul's message of "we shall not all sleep" is antithetical to the Word of God per Jeremiah 31:30. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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