The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[onewithhim]

"The wages of sin is DEATH" (Romans 6:23), and "death" is the cessation of life. There is no more consciousness for a dead person. Satan and his angels will be DEAD at the end of the Thousand Year Reign. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Revelation 20:7-10) The Lake of Fire is SYMBOLIC for complete destruction. Notice that "death and Hades" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire as well. How can those things be literally thrown into anything? So the LoF is clearly symbolic for destruction and not to be taken literally. For the Devil to be tormented, it simply means that he will not be free to cause havoc and ruin, just like a person in jail cannot do anything that he would like to do (that is "tormenting" enough), because he will be DEAD.

Satan and his angels are spiritual beings.

God is also a spiritual being:

God is a Spirit: . . .

If Satan and his angels can die as you claim, can God die also?

No, God cannot die. He is the only spirit Being that cannot, other, now, than Jesus and the co-rulers that are already in heaven with him. All other spirit beings are mortal. That hasn't changed since I Timothy 6:16 was written.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #102]

Can you name a spiritual bodied being which can die?

Jesus.

(John 1:1-4; 6:33, 41; Romans 5:8)

Yes, indeed. He could have died as a spirit person, and he did die when on Earth. Now he has been granted immortality because of his obedience. (I Timothy 6:16; Philippians 2:8-11)

Satan and all his demons are also spirits that can die, and they will.

[onewithhim]

Just because Jesus was made flesh and died in the flesh doesn't mean no spirit can die if they are a spirit. It does show that even the Son of God can die.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die as you claim -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

I'm sorry, your question doesn't make sense to me. Can you rephrase that please?

[onewithhim]

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

To your question:

If God makes a promise, we can know the promise is true because HE made that promise. He is the One who knows what will happen, and what was needed to bring this about. And we will have access to the Tree of Life.

(And even if something could be destroyed, that does not mean that it would be destroyed. There will be no more death; death is destroyed, along with the world of the dead. That is how certain God is that there will never again be need of a world of the dead.)

Spirit beings (seraphs, what most refer to as angels) do not die, you are right in that. They do not get old and die of old age or sickness. But that does not mean they cannot be destroyed (by "fire" from God).

If angels can be destroyed by fire from God, then when believers become equal unto the angels, we have not totally escaped from possible death!

That is right. But, as it has been pointed out, as long as a person or spirit being remains faithful, that person or spirit being will not die.

[myth-one.com]

Just because Jesus was made flesh and died in the flesh doesn't mean no spirit can die if they are a spirit. It does show that even the Son of God can die.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die as you claim -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

I'm sorry, your question doesn't make sense to me. Can you rephrase that please?

I'll try to explain it better:

There are two type of bodies, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

God promises everlasting life to those who believe in Jesus as their Savior:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe you claimed that both type of bodies, natural and spiritual, can die.

That being the case, how can God promise everlasting life to anyone if there is no type of body which cannot be destroyed?

I hope that makes sense.

=====================================

Here is how it's set up now:

There are two type of bodies, physical and spiritual.

Natural bodies can die, while spiritual bodies cannot die.

Those who believe in Jesus as their Savior, will be born again of the Spirit (God the Father) as spiritual bodied beings.

Since spiritual bodied beings cannot die or be destroyed, we will have conquered death by becoming immortal.

[Purple Knight]

I concur, this is what I see too. I ask people what will they do in heaven and I have heard some say, 'eat all day and not get fat.' Then I feel sad because I think to myself, THAT is why they go to church? It grieves me what people are taught.

"He made his sanctuary as enduring as the heavens, Like the earth that he has established forever." Here we see a direct a common link between both establishments. They both have been established to go on forever. Not one to be temporary.

This is where atheists have a significant advantage because we don't think any of this is going to actually happen to us in reality, so we take the canon as the canon. When people believe it's going to happen to them, Heaven becomes their personal fantasy. There's a good reason it should, since one is supposed to be happy there.

They associate pleasure with happiness, particularly physical pleasure. That's a reasonable association to have, but it doesn't hold for all people. The idea of being able to eat to your heart's content must be typical, because in Defending Your Life, this is one of the things they showed. Not that the movie was anything close to a Christian conception of the afterlife, however. It did strike a chord with me, since the whole goal of being dead was to ultimately move beyond those physical attachments.

From my experience people view earth as low, inferior, and to some, detestable. I'd treat people's view fairly too if they didn't treat their gift from God like trash based on a erroneous teaching. It's amazing how much a slight difference in what people believe can do so much harm.

I don't think it's the earth that's cruddy, I think humans make it a bad place, destroy the environment, overpopulate and pillage resources, but that's another matter entirely. Think of it this way: If you were put into the body of an earthworm, having to eat and poop as you go, blind and naked, your own body a filthy writhing thing, you wouldn't like that very much, especially if you got to keep your full consciousness. Feeling a bit of that just being human is not the norm, but I don't think it's wrong or perverse or evil. If you really think about it, it's quite natural to feel that.

[onewithhim]

Just because Jesus was made flesh and died in the flesh doesn't mean no spirit can die if they are a spirit. It does show that even the Son of God can die.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die as you claim -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

I'm sorry, your question doesn't make sense to me. Can you rephrase that please?

I'll try to explain it better:

There are two type of bodies, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

God promises everlasting life to those who believe in Jesus as their Savior:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe you claimed that both type of bodies, natural and spiritual, can die.

That being the case, how can God promise everlasting life to anyone if there is no type of body which cannot be destroyed?

I hope that makes sense.

=====================================

Here is how it's set up now:

There are two type of bodies, physical and spiritual.

Natural bodies can die, while spiritual bodies cannot die.

Those who believe in Jesus as their Savior, will be born again of the Spirit (God the Father) as spiritual bodied beings.

Since spiritual bodied beings cannot die or be destroyed, we will have conquered death by becoming immortal.

Created spiritual bodies CAN be destroyed, as they are not immortal. You said previously that God cannot destroy what he created, but that is just your opinion. There is nothing in the Bible that says that spirit beings cannot be destroyed.

[myth-one.com]

Created spiritual bodies CAN be destroyed, as they are not immortal. You said previously that God cannot destroy what he created, but that is just your opinion.

I said previously that God cannot destroy anything that He created as immortal, such as the angels.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that spirit beings cannot be destroyed.

There are actually multiple scriptures stating that spiritual bodied beings cannot be destroyed.

Let's take them one at a time, because if you don't accept one as truth, you likly won't accept the others either.:

To enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God, one must be born again of the Spirit:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And when a person is born of the Spirit, they are a spiritual bodied being like the angels: "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Speaking of these human believers who shall be born again as spirits into the Kingdom of God, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

So believers will gain everlasting life when born again of the Spirit as spiritual bodied beings. And upon being born again as spirits, believers will never die any more, because they will have become equal unto the angels.

<=============================>

If believers born of the Spirit can never die, and those born again as spirits are equal unto the angels, then angels can never die either!

Thus proving that angels can never die.

<=============================>

Do you agree that the scriptures below prove that spiritual bodied angels cannot be destroyed?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:5-7)

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

If not, what is your disagreement?

If you agree I'll proceed with the next supporting scripture showing that spiritual beings cannot be destroyed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #128]

I have presented scriptures that show that spirit beings are NOT immortal, and I stand by that. When Paul wrote to Timothy, Jesus was the only spirit being with immortality. (I Timothy 6:16) Are you dismissing that?


.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #128]

I have presented scriptures that show that spirit beings are NOT immortal, and I stand by that. When Paul wrote to Timothy, Jesus was the only spirit being with immortality. (I Timothy 6:16) Are you dismissing that?

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only human to ever qualify as an heir under the Old Testament Covenant.

That is, the wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, so He is an heir to everlasting life under that original covenant.

It is His possession, He owns it! So He is the only person that "hath immortality."

That is the meaning of "I Timothy 6:16".

However, He will not accept His inheritance, but offer it as a gift to whosoever believes in Him as their Savior under the New Testament covenant.

If Jesus was not a mortal man, then we would have no Savior, and would still be under the Old Testament Covenant of remaining sinless to escape death -- something no man could do until Jesus was born.

So thanks to Jesus, we are under the New Testament Covenant which fixes the fault in the Old Testament Covenant.

Under the New Testament Covenant, all one has to do to gain everlasting life is to accept the gift of everlasting life earned and offered by Jesus.