The 144,000 in JW theology

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Wootah
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The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Wootah »

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #521

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:52 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #519]
Satan did give authority to the beast (world governments), but the beast is not now Rome. Iron mixed with clay describes the part of the beast that is now the Duo World Power of Great Britain and the U.S.A. We are that close to the end of this system of things when Jesus eradicates all of men's governments and sets up his own government over the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Isaiah 9:6,7)
The iron represents Rome, not the U.S. nor Britain. Britain lost its empire quickly after the 2nd world war. The last beast, the 8th head of the beast is described during the period of the 6th head of the beast, the time of the writing of Revelation, as being a beast who "was", "is not", and is the "8th". The U.S. did not precede the 6th head of the beast (Revelation 17:9-11). The beast preceding the reign of the Augustus Caesars, was Julius Caesar, who turned the Roman Republic into a dictatorship, run by the following Augustus Caesar dictators. You may think that Barry and Biden were trying to do the same thing, in establishing a dictatorship, but the difference is that in the end, it won't happen. Apparently, the mothers of Virginia, and the truckers, are not going to stand for it. Even California parents are rebelling against reigning dictators. Who would believe it? When the Progressives find out that immigrants are basically conservatives, they will have to pull out their hair, and jump in front of a train.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #522

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:52 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #519]
Satan did give authority to the beast (world governments), but the beast is not now Rome. Iron mixed with clay describes the part of the beast that is now the Duo World Power of Great Britain and the U.S.A. We are that close to the end of this system of things when Jesus eradicates all of men's governments and sets up his own government over the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Isaiah 9:6,7)
With respect to Daniel 2:44, there has not been a kingdom that has crushed "all of those kingdoms", and all of those kingdoms still exist in the form of Persia (Iran)(home of the Sunni), the Greeks (Greece)(the people of the prince of Greece), the Romans (the Czars of Russia (Putin), the pope of Rome with his army, the Kaiser of Germany (Merkel now negotiating with Putin), and Babylon (Iraq)(home of the Shia). As far as Daniel 2:45, all the kingdoms will be crushed by the "stone cut out of the mountain", which has not happened. That happens at the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2) after Judah and Jerusalem has been "restored". As for Isaiah 9:6-7), the Lord has come against both Israel and Judah until they "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), at which time he will heal them (Hosea 6:1-2) after 2 days, 2000 years. As for the "throne of David" per Ezekiel 37:15:28, The LORD will reunite Ephraim and Judah, and set David as their king, and they will live on the land given to Jacob, "forever". As for the nations/Gentiles, those who survive the tribulations will confess their fathers taught them nothing but falsehoods (Jeremiah 16:19).

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #523

Post by 2timothy316 »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:27 pm
With respect to Daniel 2:44, there has not been a kingdom that has crushed "all of those kingdoms",
Its coming. It's not an earthly kingdom that going to do it either. Remember, it's not made by man's hands. Daniel 2:34

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #524

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:22 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:27 pm
With respect to Daniel 2:44, there has not been a kingdom that has crushed "all of those kingdoms",
Its coming. It's not an earthly kingdom that going to do it either. Remember, it's not made by man's hands. Daniel 2:34
That seems a little lame. It was cut out of the "mountain" without hands. That would be the mountain of God, Mount Zion, which exists on earth, from which some will "survive" the coming "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) and it will crush kingdoms on earth, and the stone "crushed the gold, iron, etc., "all at the same time", and it filled the "whole earth" (Daniel 2:35-36). The "stone" is the foundation stone, the "tested stone" based on righteousness, and justice (Isaiah 28:16-18), which will "sweep away the refuge of lies", which emanate from the father of lies, the devil, and according to Matthew 13:39, the message of the devil is encapsulated into your NT, the same field as can be found the message of the son of man (Matthew 13:25).

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #525

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:20 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:52 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #519]
Satan did give authority to the beast (world governments), but the beast is not now Rome. Iron mixed with clay describes the part of the beast that is now the Duo World Power of Great Britain and the U.S.A. We are that close to the end of this system of things when Jesus eradicates all of men's governments and sets up his own government over the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Isaiah 9:6,7)
The iron represents Rome, not the U.S. nor Britain. Britain lost its empire quickly after the 2nd world war. The last beast, the 8th head of the beast is described during the period of the 6th head of the beast, the time of the writing of Revelation, as being a beast who "was", "is not", and is the "8th".
Yes, the iron represents Rome. Here is my "link" (I don't know how to do links :D ) to a beautiful article in the book Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy by the WTS:

"Britain was once a northwestern part of the Roman Empire. But by the year 1763 it had become the British Empire--the Britannia that ruled the seven seas. By 1776 its 13 American colonies had declared their independence in order to set up the United States of America. In later years, however, Britain and the U.S. became partners in both war and peace. Thus, the Anglo-American combination came into existence as the 7th world power of Bible prophecy. Like the Roman Empire, it has proved to be 'strong like iron,' exercising iron-like authority. The iron legs of the dream image thus include both the Roman Empire and the Anglo-American dual world power....The feet and toes of 'iron mixed with clay' would symbolize the final manifestation of human rule that would exist during 'the time of the end.'" (Daniel 12:4)

So, we are, I would surmise, in the position of the feet of iron and clay. (The beast that was but was not and then came back is the United Nations, the 8th world power of Bible prophecy.) I would recommend that book that I mentioned above. It goes through Daniel's book with a fine-toothed comb. It is awesome.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #526

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #524]

Mount Zion may exist on Earth, but it's the heavenly Mount Zion that is significant now, not the earthly one. In John's vision of heaven he sees "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with him the 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1) This is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #527

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:38 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #524]

Mount Zion may exist on Earth, but it's the heavenly Mount Zion that is significant now, not the earthly one. In John's vision of heaven he sees "the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with him the 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1) This is the mountain from which the rock came to crush all earthly governments.
Keep in mind that the lamb, as the son of man, returns "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), in which the nations were crushed. And the "one hundred and forty-four thousand" had not been defiled by women (Revelation 14:4), nor was any lie found in their mouth, which pretty much eliminates your 144,000 JWs. It is not the "mountain" that crushes the kingdoms, it is the stone, which is the rock the church is built on, the "Word of God", the spirit of revelation, which defeats the nations (Revelation 19:11-15), by the sharp sword coming from his mouth. It is the Word of God, combined with the sharpness of the Spirit of God, which will destroy the nations/Gentiles. It is not some 144,000 dead JWs who had been defiled by women, who are in their graves, who will be of any affect.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #528

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:31 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:20 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:52 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #519]
Satan did give authority to the beast (world governments), but the beast is not now Rome. Iron mixed with clay describes the part of the beast that is now the Duo World Power of Great Britain and the U.S.A. We are that close to the end of this system of things when Jesus eradicates all of men's governments and sets up his own government over the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Isaiah 9:6,7)
The iron represents Rome, not the U.S. nor Britain. Britain lost its empire quickly after the 2nd world war. The last beast, the 8th head of the beast is described during the period of the 6th head of the beast, the time of the writing of Revelation, as being a beast who "was", "is not", and is the "8th".
Yes, the iron represents Rome. Here is my "link" (I don't know how to do links :D ) to a beautiful article in the book Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy by the WTS:

"Britain was once a northwestern part of the Roman Empire. But by the year 1763 it had become the British Empire--the Britannia that ruled the seven seas. By 1776 its 13 American colonies had declared their independence in order to set up the United States of America. In later years, however, Britain and the U.S. became partners in both war and peace. Thus, the Anglo-American combination came into existence as the 7th world power of Bible prophecy. Like the Roman Empire, it has proved to be 'strong like iron,' exercising iron-like authority. The iron legs of the dream image thus include both the Roman Empire and the Anglo-American dual world power....The feet and toes of 'iron mixed with clay' would symbolize the final manifestation of human rule that would exist during 'the time of the end.'" (Daniel 12:4)

So, we are, I would surmise, in the position of the feet of iron and clay. (The beast that was but was not and then came back is the United Nations, the 8th world power of Bible prophecy.) I would recommend that book that I mentioned above. It goes through Daniel's book with a fine-toothed comb. It is awesome.
The United Nations never existed before the 6th head of the beast, when Revelation was written. And the United Nations is not a kingdom of 10 heads, nor is it a power. And Britain is no longer an empire or a top-ranking powerful nation. London is now ruled by a Muslim, and the British are no longer part of the European Union. The Irish didn't even participate in the 2nd World War. The Pound is no longer king, and the dollar is heading towards the dump. The U.S. helped the British by lending dollars and producing weapons. It was Japan that got the U.S. into the 2nd world war, which happened in 1941, way past 1914. The "end times" is represented by the nations coming against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-4), when the nations will be judged, such as "their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and then their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth" (Zech 14:12).

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

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Post by 2ndpillar2 »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:22 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:27 pm
With respect to Daniel 2:44, there has not been a kingdom that has crushed "all of those kingdoms",
Its coming. It's not an earthly kingdom that going to do it either. Remember, it's not made by man's hands. Daniel 2:34
The "tested stone" was produced by the finger of God.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #530

Post by tam »

Peace to you both,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:33 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:07 pm The holy people in today's arena, are Judah, the Jews ...

Well I do not agree. The descendents of Abraham as a people do not figure in any end time prophecy because the Jews were rejected as a people following their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. God's people today are spirit anointed born again Christians.
The holy people can include Jews (and people from the other tribes) as well as Gentiles. But God did not reject the Jews. He has reserved a remnant from Israel (the 144 000, 12000 from each of 12 tribes), just as he had previously reserved a remnant of 7000.

Romans 11 goes through this.

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

So too at the present time there is a remnant chosen. A remnant of ISRAEL, descendants of Abraham (from the various tribes of Israel).


What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”

And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.



The 144 000 (12 000 from 12 tribes of Israel, as described in Revelation) are the remnant that God chose/reserved, from ISRAEL.

More than just 144 000 from Israel can enter into the new covenant (as well as Gentiles), and then reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years, but 144 000 are reserved from Israel, descendants of Abraham.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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