The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #89]

Do you hope to be one of the 144,000?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #89]

Do you hope to be one of the 144,000?

No.

[myth-one.com]

Only incorrigibly wicked people and spirit beings will be annihilated.

The Bible states that all who believe in Jesus will gain everlasting life, while non-believers will perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Describing non-believers as "incorrigibly wicked people" seems offensive.

Some of the finest people who ever lived, probably died as nonbelievers in Jesus Christ.

Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind. And I've known Jews and Muslims of good character.

Many non-Christians have certainly lived better lives than I.

I'm am not proud of that. I simply accept it as fact.

Here's how Paul put it in his writings to the Christians in Corinth:

. . . neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: . . .

=========================================

And once again, spirits are immortal and cannot be killed or annihilated. God Himself is a spirit.

[onewithhim]

Only incorrigibly wicked people and spirit beings will be annihilated.

The Bible states that all who believe in Jesus will gain everlasting life, while non-believers will perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Describing non-believers as "incorrigibly wicked people" seems offensive.

Some of the finest people who ever lived, probably died as nonbelievers in Jesus Christ.

Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind. And I've known Jews and Muslims of good character.

Many non-Christians have certainly lived better lives than I.

I'm am not proud of that. I simply accept it as fact.

Here's how Paul put it in his writings to the Christians in Corinth:

. . . neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: . . .

=========================================

And once again, spirits are immortal and cannot be killed or annihilated. God Himself is a spirit.

I am not referring to non-believers as "incorrigibly wicked." That is what you are choosing to label them, it seems, because I am not. I have said that there will be non-believers that will survive Armageddon and will be instructed in the ways of the Truth during the Millennial Reign. It is AFTER the Millennial Reign that those people who survived (as well as many who are resurrected) but continue to be non-believers, or, non-supporters of Jehovah's universal Sovereignty, will be destroyed.

You quote Paul to the Corinthians about all those that will not inherit God's Kingdom....those would be the ones who insist on continuing in their evil ways. Only the ones who want to change, and those who don't know the Truth at all will walk into the new system of things. There will be an opportunity for them to change during the Thousand Year Reign, and take sides with Jehovah and Christ. So, no, not all non-believers are incorrigibly wicked. Jehovah knows who they are, and he will deal with them appropriately. He knows who have something good in them, and will give them another chance.

Once again, I have shown you verses that show that spirits CAN be killed.

[myth-one.com]

Only incorrigibly wicked people and spirit beings will be annihilated.

All non-believers will be annihilated. So many more will be annihilated than only the "incorrigibly wicked".

You quote Paul to the Corinthians about all those that will not inherit God's Kingdom....those would be the ones who insist on continuing in their evil ways. Only the ones who want to change, and those who don't know the Truth at all will walk into the new system of things. There will be an opportunity for them to change during the Thousand Year Reign, and take sides with Jehovah and Christ. So, no, not all non-believers are incorrigibly wicked. Jehovah knows who they are, and he will deal with them appropriately. He knows who have something good in them, and will give them another chance.

Salvation no longer depends on one's works to fulfill the laws of God. So Paul's list is meaningless as a predictor of who will, or will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Having good in someone is reflected in their works, but good works no longer saves anyone -- unless believing in Jesus is considered a work. It's a choice every human must make -- to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior. One can do that at any time in which they exist as humans.

Once again, I have shown you verses that show that spirits CAN be killed.

The remaining difference between mortal man and God and the angels is body type -- natural versus spiritual:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

Hell is going to be the eternal prison of the immortal spiritual bodied devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #89]

Do you hope to be one of the 144,000?

No.

Being one of the vastly more people who have Paradise instead is probably good enough.

I recently did a re-read of the sections where the Bible talks about what ultimately happens to people and I think (at least according to Biblical canon) that JW theology is correct on this point. The Bible does seem to say that people who pass muster will be raised from the dead, and in fact be alive, to live out eternity in their physical bodies without infirmity.

[2timothy316]

Being one of the vastly more people who have Paradise instead is probably good enough.

Those that wish to live in Heaven and those that wish to live on Earth are both getting tremendous rewards for their love and loyalty to God and mankind.

We do not think one is merely good enough or one place is better than the other. We look at it this way: Let's say two people are promised endless happiness. God, who knows what we want even before we ask, sends one person 20 miles away to one location to obtain their happiness but sends the other person 2000 miles away to obtain their happiness. When considering the reward, who cares about the mileage or location?

People in heaven will have endless lives, be rulers and teachers, live a spiritual paradise, a realm we as physical creatures can't reach or see and be in the actual presence of both Jesus and his God Jehovah. Good for them!
People on the earth will have endless lives, be on the reviving end of the care and teaching of those rulers with Christ. Have a whole planet to enjoy, care for and who knows what beyond that.

Neither those that go to heaven or those on the earth know what Jehovah God has in store for all of us. Just think about it. For an unknowable amount of time there was only the spirit realm. Then Jehovah decided that He was going to create a whole new thing, the physical universe we live in now. Can you imagine being an angel and hearing that kind of news?! What more will happen? No one knows! But I for one want to be there when it does! I like my physical existence and if this is the form I have when I experience those new things, fine by me! I speak for millions when I say, we do not feel like we are getting a 2nd place prize.

[onewithhim]

Only incorrigibly wicked people and spirit beings will be annihilated.

All non-believers will be annihilated. So many more will be annihilated than only the "incorrigibly wicked".

You quote Paul to the Corinthians about all those that will not inherit God's Kingdom....those would be the ones who insist on continuing in their evil ways. Only the ones who want to change, and those who don't know the Truth at all will walk into the new system of things. There will be an opportunity for them to change during the Thousand Year Reign, and take sides with Jehovah and Christ. So, no, not all non-believers are incorrigibly wicked. Jehovah knows who they are, and he will deal with them appropriately. He knows who have something good in them, and will give them another chance.

Salvation no longer depends on one's works to fulfill the laws of God. So Paul's list is meaningless as a predictor of who will, or will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Having good in someone is reflected in their works, but good works no longer saves anyone -- unless believing in Jesus is considered a work. It's a choice every human must make -- to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior. One can do that at any time in which they exist as humans.

Once again, I have shown you verses that show that spirits CAN be killed.

The remaining difference between mortal man and God and the angels is body type -- natural versus spiritual:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

Hell is going to be the eternal prison of the immortal spiritual bodied devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"The wages of sin is DEATH" (Romans 6:23), and "death" is the cessation of life. There is no more consciousness for a dead person. Satan and his angels will be DEAD at the end of the Thousand Year Reign. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Revelation 20:7-10) The Lake of Fire is SYMBOLIC for complete destruction. Notice that "death and Hades" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire as well. How can those things be literally thrown into anything? So the LoF is clearly symbolic for destruction and not to be taken literally. For the Devil to be tormented, it simply means that he will not be free to cause havoc and ruin, just like a person in jail cannot do anything that he would like to do (that is "tormenting" enough), because he will be DEAD.

[Purple Knight]

We do not think one is merely good enough or one place is better than the other. We look at it this way: Let's say two people are promised endless happiness. God, who knows what we want even before we ask, sends one person 20 miles away to one location to obtain their happiness but sends the other person 2000 miles away to obtain their happiness. When considering the reward, who cares about the mileage or location?

It's a lot more than mileage and location when some people keep their bodies and some don't. But no, I didn't mean "merely" at all. Most people, when they think of Heaven, actually picture Paradise. I remember in Chronicles of Narnia they all died and went to (presumably) Heaven, but there was food there. There were houses. There were rivers and waterfalls. This is incredibly typical.

People want to run along the river and lie down in green grass. That's physical. That's physical reality. That's having your physical body. That's being alive.

I think most Christians agree with you whether they know it or not.

I like my physical existence and if this is the form I have when I experience those new things, fine by me! I speak for millions when I say, we do not feel like we are getting a 2nd place prize.

I don't think you speak for just the JWs. I think the rest of Christians, at least typically, are conceptualising what is right (again, canonically) but just saying what is wrong. This phenomenon doesn't have a name really, but it's incredibly common across all walks of life, so I try to identify it and be fair to people.

I personally wouldn't want to eat food, hug people, sleep, wake up, live in a nice house, or even live anywhere. Needing any of that is something I would prefer to be freed from, but I am in the extreme minority. Most people don't just want to be consciousness. Those physical things are comforts to them, not chains.

[2timothy316]

We do not think one is merely good enough or one place is better than the other. We look at it this way: Let's say two people are promised endless happiness. God, who knows what we want even before we ask, sends one person 20 miles away to one location to obtain their happiness but sends the other person 2000 miles away to obtain their happiness. When considering the reward, who cares about the mileage or location?

It's a lot more than mileage and location when some people keep their bodies and some don't. But no, I didn't mean "merely" at all. Most people, when they think of Heaven, actually picture Paradise. I remember in Chronicles of Narnia they all died and went to (presumably) Heaven, but there was food there. There were houses. There were rivers and waterfalls. This is incredibly typical.

I concur, this is what I see too. I ask people what will they do in heaven and I have heard some say, 'eat all day and not get fat.' Then I feel sad because I think to myself, THAT is why they go to church? It grieves me what people are taught.

People want to run along the river and lie down in green grass. That's physical. That's physical reality. That's having your physical body. That's being alive.

I think most Christians agree with you whether they know it or not.{/quote] Beautiful sunrises and sunsets, the smell of fresh baked bread...raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens....etc etc.
They believe that way because the Bible isn't taught in Churches. They are taught the Earth is dispensable. I have heard it likened to a proving ground to get into heaven. They are told it's a temporary place and WOW they sure have treated it as such too. They are taught it was never supposed to used forever. Yet if they were taught scriptures like Psalm 78:69 where it states, "He made his sanctuary as enduring as the heavens, Like the earth that he has established forever." Here we see a direct a common link between both establishments. They both have been established to go on forever. Not one to be temporary.

I like my physical existence and if this is the form I have when I experience those new things, fine by me! I speak for millions when I say, we do not feel like we are getting a 2nd place prize.

I don't think you speak for just the JWs. I think the rest of Christians, at least typically, are conceptualising what is right (again, canonically) but just saying what is wrong. This phenomenon doesn't have a name really, but it's incredibly common across all walks of life, so I try to identify it and be fair to people.

Well, if you can get them to see that, let me know how you did it! LOL
From my experience people view earth as low, inferior, and to some, detestable. I'd treat people's view fairly too if they didn't treat their gift from God like trash based on a erroneous teaching. It's amazing how much a slight difference in what people believe can do so much harm.

I personally wouldn't want to eat food, hug people, sleep, wake up, live in a nice house, or even live anywhere. Needing any of that is something I would prefer to be freed from, but I am in the extreme minority. Most people don't just want to be consciousness. Those physical things are comforts to them, not chains.

There are people in the Bible that wished to be released for life's comforts through death. Yet there was a cause that was later remedied. Who knows, perhaps there is a cause for the reason you feel the way you do and it too can one day be remedied. "With God all things are possible." - Matt 19:26.